Heb 8:7-13

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:42 pm

Yes I try to approach every subject with an unbiased, open mind. I know I don’t have all the answers. I’m teachable. Yet, I’m a Berean to. The Bereans searched the scriptures to determine whether the things being taught were true or false.


As you may realize by now although i like the Textus Receptus i think that the KJV under pressure not to antagonize the RCC adopted some pagan bias in their translation. So as a Berean you know we must compare scripture with scripture to see the use of a word overall in the whole bible.
You have used the word "everlasting" several times have you not?
So what is your opinion on this, the KJV says that the Aaronic Priesthood is an "everlasting" priesthood when the book of Hebrews states an end to it (Ex 40.15, Heb 7.14-18 :shock:
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_loaves
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Post by _loaves » Fri Mar 24, 2006 6:08 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Yes I try to approach every subject with an unbiased, open mind. I know I don’t have all the answers. I’m teachable. Yet, I’m a Berean to. The Bereans searched the scriptures to determine whether the things being taught were true or false.

As you may realize by now although i like the Textus Receptus i think that the KJV under pressure not to antagonize the RCC adopted some pagan bias in their translation. So as a Berean you know we must compare scripture with scripture to see the use of a word overall in the whole bible.
You have used the word "everlasting" several times have you not?
So what is your opinion on this, the KJV says that the Aaronic Priesthood is an "everlasting" priesthood when the book of Hebrews states an end to it (Ex 40.15, Heb 7.14-18
The Aaronic priesthood was a spiritual priesthood. The law was nullified, but this “spiritual priesthood” continued did it not? Jesus Christ succeeded and became the heir to this priesthood, Heb. 7:28. The torch was passed to Christ, and He will indeed bear it forever.

This was very similar to when God said that out of Israel would be this “everlasting kingdom.” Of course, the Israeli kingdom was destroyed by barbarians, etc. What He meant was this “spiritual Israel.” This “heavenly kingdom” that Jesus talked so much about. Jesus continually contrasted the “Kingdoms of Earth” with the “Kingdom of Heaven.”

And so, in short, God indeed was right when He said the priesthood would be “everlasting.” Jesus took up this spiritual priesthood and will therefore carry the torch throughout eternity.
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loaves

"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)

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_Father_of_five
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Post by _Father_of_five » Fri Mar 24, 2006 7:37 pm

Romans 13:1-5 (ASV)
1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.


Here is a scripture which says that our Governmental Authorities are ordained of God and are His ministers of wrath to him who does evil. It is important to consider that some of the references about the execution of God's wrath may be referring to this (and things like this) rather than sending people to unending torment in Hell.

Todd
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Post by _loaves » Fri Mar 24, 2006 8:47 pm

Father_of_five wrote:Romans 13:1-5 (ASV)
1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:
4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be in subjection, not only because of the wrath, but also for conscience' sake.


Here is a scripture which says that our Governmental Authorities are ordained of God and are His ministers of wrath to him who does evil. It is important to consider that some of the references about the execution of God's wrath may be referring to this (and things like this) rather than sending people to unending torment in Hell.

Todd
Why does Paul have to be exclusively referring to "governing authorities" as "civil authorities." For all we know, Paul could be referring to the local church, and referring to it as your "governing authority." In a spiritual sense, that is.

What's more, "wrath" does not neccessarily mean "punishment," in the English sense of the word. It could very well mean church discipline on obstinate sinners who refuse to repent.

Let's not debate Romans 13. We are debating...what was it we were debating again?

Let's not be inclusively exclusive about this.
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"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)

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Post by _Father_of_five » Fri Mar 24, 2006 9:44 pm

loaves wrote:...what was it we were debating again?
This thread began with a quote from Hebrews which could be understood to describe a future time when "all flesh" knows the Lord. For that to happen the traditional view of Hell must be challenged. My quoting of Romans 13:1-5 points out that the execution of God's wrath can be an earthly event such as being put in jail or paying a fine...or, as you point out, church discipline. Perhaps then, some of the scriptures which are interpreted by some to promote the traditional view of Hell, can be understood in a different light.

So, my post was perfectly appropriate for this discussion.

Todd
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Post by _Homer » Fri Mar 24, 2006 11:59 pm

This thread began with a quote from Hebrews which could be understood to describe a future time when "all flesh" knows the Lord.
This thread began with an incorrect premise regarding the passage in Hebrews, which has easily been shown to be false, at least to an unbiased mind.

It seems to me we have some folks who can not accept that God could be
as pictured in the scriptures. Skeptics have long railed at the picture of God in the OT regarding the destruction of nations, children and all. Now it is viewed as unseemly of God to permanently send the lost into "outer darkness", when the whole tenor of scripture indicates otherwise.

There's not much to be done regarding doctrine based on wishful thinking. Every scripture is spun to suit the agenda, with speculation and unusual meanings attributed to this verse and that.

Give up Loaves, its a hopeless cause.
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_mdh
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Post by _mdh » Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:58 am

Homer,

I have been reading your posts for a long time. I have a lot of respect for you. It seems apparent to me that your faith is serious to you, and that you love our Lord.

I must say, that an unbiased mind is "in the eye of the beholder", and people have been dividing over their various interpretations for hundreds, yes thousands, of years. What seems clear to you regarding the whole tenor of scripture is not always clear to others.

It seems to me that when Jesus came to earth there were many who thought they knew just what to expect when the Messiah came. Most were wrong. Somehow I think that should make us try to remain humble about our own interpretations.

You say it is a hopeless cause. I guess that depends on what the cause is. If it is to make us all see scripture the same way, perhaps you are right. But everyone I have been reading here has been putting their hope in Jesus Christ. Something worth smiling about :D

Please be patient with us. We are lovers of truth, as I know you are!

Mike
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Post by _Sean » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:21 am

mdh wrote:Sean.

It's seems clear to me that you are not open to considering alternate interpretations of what you have decided is a passage on the final state.

There are some. They actually have been posted on this forum.
I'm not sure I understand. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to get answers to the passages I brought up. Do you see me this way beacuse I don't change my mind?

There are others here who do the same, they make their points and interpret passages another way and that's fine. That's how we learn from one another.

So I'm not sure what you mean. That I'm not open to changing my mind? Obviously no one else has changed their mind either. But I'm not here expecting them to. The reason I posted Luke 16 is to get a reasonable explanation. I don't know if this was covered in detail already (maybe in the other thread). I haven't seen a good explanation yet for it so that's why I brought it up. If I missed previous explanations then I apologize for missing them.
mdh wrote: Isn't it interesting that in the passage that the rich man's brothers are still alive on earth? Sounds to me like this story (parable?)
I affirm that his brothers were still alive. I think it shows that this is what happends when people die, it shows were they go before the resurrection.

To me, the arguement that this is a parable is strange. Mainly because I don't see how this would change the meaning, I already tried to explain why in my last post.

Jesus, IMO, didn't use non-sense in other parables, so why would He here? Why did it say that Lazarus went to Abraham's bozom if he was a Gentile? Especially when it says: But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
This would seem to suggest that Lazarus was a Jew and so was the rich man.
mdh wrote: is pre-resurrection, and therefore pre-judgement and before anyone has been sent to hell. Do you believe that Jesus was teaching that unbelievers are tormented before they are resurrected and judged, then stand before God at the judgement, to be sent back to eternal torment?
Why would you assume pre-judgement is before anyone is sent to Hell/Hades or Tartarus etc?

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Yes, it mentions angels but is in the context of men as well, notice this in the same context:

2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment

I'd say this confirms the theology of Luke 16's parable. How can God keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgement if they are soul sleeping? Or if they don't face any punishment until after the day of judgement?

I'm sure I'll see how many multiple other ways some greek words can be taken, and that's fine as long it is understood that ones paradigm (including my own) isn't met by searching for the one possible defintion that meets my view.

In Revelation, at the judgement we see this:

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

So one can be held in Hades until judgement, then judged and then Hades is cast into another "place" called the lake of fire, this is the second death. So I read this as being the events of judgement day. Those who have been dead and those who were held in Hades will face judgement, and who knows, maybe some of them have their names written in the book of life and avoid the lake of fire.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:07 am

The Aaronic priesthood was a spiritual priesthood. The law was nullified, but this “spiritual priesthood” continued did it not? Jesus Christ succeeded and became the heir to this priesthood, Heb. 7:28. The torch was passed to Christ, and He will indeed bear it forever.

This was very similar to when God said that out of Israel would be this “everlasting kingdom.” Of course, the Israeli kingdom was destroyed by barbarians, etc. What He meant was this “spiritual Israel.” This “heavenly kingdom” that Jesus talked so much about. Jesus continually contrasted the “Kingdoms of Earth” with the “Kingdom of Heaven.”

And so, in short, God indeed was right when He said the priesthood would be “everlasting.” Jesus took up this spiritual priesthood and will therefore carry the torch throughout eternity.


No i don't think the Aaronic priesthood was spiritual since it was based on the Law of Moses which was physical and carnel and is the Old Covenant which has become obsolete. Hebrews 7.13
Obsolete means done,ended,finished,completed and God called the New Covenant unlike the Old Covenant. The destruction of the temple was God's final judgement on earthly Israel and the Aaronic priesthood which ended.
I understand your point about physical Israel transitioning into spiritual Israel and that's a valid point but i don't think it applies to the Aaronic priesthood under the Old Covenant which became obsolete. Israel was never called obsolete.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:14 am

It seems to me we have some folks who can not accept that God could be
as pictured in the scriptures. Skeptics have long railed at the picture of God in the OT regarding the destruction of nations, children and all. Now it is viewed as unseemly of God to permanently send the lost into "outer darkness", when the whole tenor of scripture indicates otherwise.



Homer, You're good at labels are'nt you. If i ever need any labels i'll look you up. Now the universalists have morphed into skeptics, who knows next you may be calling us atheists. :lol:
As far as scripture goes i like to try to understand the greek words and not just accept the KJV translators carte blanche.
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