mdh wrote:Sean.
It's seems clear to me that you are not open to considering alternate interpretations of what you have decided is a passage on the final state.
There are some. They actually have been posted on this forum.
I'm not sure I understand. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to get answers to the passages I brought up. Do you see me this way beacuse I don't change my mind?
There are others here who do the same, they make their points and interpret passages another way and that's fine. That's how we learn from one another.
So I'm not sure what you mean. That I'm not open to changing my mind? Obviously no one else has changed their mind either. But I'm not here expecting them to. The reason I posted Luke 16 is to get a reasonable explanation. I don't know if this was covered in detail already (maybe in the other thread). I haven't seen a good explanation yet for it so that's why I brought it up. If I missed previous explanations then I apologize for missing them.
mdh wrote:
Isn't it interesting that in the passage that the rich man's brothers are still alive on earth? Sounds to me like this story (parable?)
I affirm that his brothers were still alive. I think it shows that this is what happends when people die, it shows were they go before the resurrection.
To me, the arguement that this is a parable is strange. Mainly because I don't see how this would change the meaning, I already tried to explain why in my last post.
Jesus, IMO, didn't use non-sense in other parables, so why would He here? Why did it say that Lazarus went to Abraham's bozom if he was a Gentile? Especially when it says: But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'
This would seem to suggest that Lazarus was a Jew and so was the rich man.
mdh wrote:
is pre-resurrection, and therefore pre-judgement and before anyone has been sent to hell. Do you believe that Jesus was teaching that unbelievers are tormented before they are resurrected and judged, then stand before God at the judgement, to be sent back to eternal torment?
Why would you assume pre-judgement is before anyone is sent to Hell/Hades or Tartarus etc?
2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned,
but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness
to be kept until the judgment;
Yes, it mentions angels but is in the context of men as well, notice this in the same context:
2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials,
and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment
I'd say this confirms the theology of Luke 16's parable. How can God keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgement if they are soul sleeping? Or if they don't face any punishment until after the day of judgement?
I'm sure I'll see how many multiple other ways some greek words can be taken, and that's fine as long it is understood that ones paradigm (including my own) isn't met by searching for the one possible defintion that meets my view.
In Revelation, at the judgement we see this:
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it,
Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
So one can be held in Hades until judgement, then judged and then Hades is cast into another "place" called the lake of fire, this is the second death. So I read this as being the events of judgement day. Those who have been dead and those who were held in Hades will face judgement, and who knows, maybe some of them have their names written in the book of life and avoid the lake of fire.
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)