Steve's response to challenges raised by Mark & Dusman

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_Prakk
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The nature of a corpse produces the same response everytime.

Post by _Prakk » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:17 pm

Sean wrote:"Well, I don't have a problem with that. But I usually see Calvinists using the term 'dead' to mean somthing that it doesn't. Like total inability to respond to the gospel because 'dead men don't respond'."
Outwardly they would seem to. Those that are lost though are spiritually dead and not capable of responding on that level. So insofar as the dead can choose, they choose not surprisingly, to stay dead. This is in accordance with their nature.

Hugh McBryde
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Re: The nature of a corpse produces the same response everyt

Post by _Sean » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:53 pm

Prakk wrote:Outwardly they would seem to. Those that are lost though are spiritually dead and not capable of responding on that level. So insofar as the dead can choose, they choose not surprisingly, to stay dead. This is in accordance with their nature.

Hugh McBryde
Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe.

I don't believe that regeneration preceeds belief. I believe that conviction does preceed belief though. If regeneration preceeded belief then unbelievers would be saved, not believers.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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Post by _Homer » Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:11 pm

Once again I will ask my question. If Calvinism is true, why did Jesus weep over sinners who would not repent? Was he insincere or just ignorant? Perhaps He needed some lessons from Calvin.
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A Berean

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Will the made say to the maker, why have you made me thus?

Post by _Prakk » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:26 am

Sean wrote:"Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe."
I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,
"A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
That would be Psalm 92. Then there is that whole business about "Vessels of Wrath" in Romans 9,
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"
Us being known before being born in Jeremiah 1,
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
And so on. I could go on. I fail to see how the problem is cured by saying that only some people are predestined in this way, but others are not.
Sean wrote:"I don't believe that regeneration preceeds belief. I believe that conviction does preceed belief though. If regeneration preceeded belief then unbelievers would be saved, not believers."
Prophets being selected before they were even conceived and children filled with the Holy Spirit and leaping in the womb suggest otherwise.
Homer wrote:"Once again I will ask my question. If Calvinism is true, why did Jesus weep over sinners who would not repent?"
All men, lost or saved are made in the image of God. The intention of design in them speaks of another purpose, one that they do not serve if they are lost and vessels of wrath. This is certainly sad.

Hugh McBryde
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Re: Will the made say to the maker, why have you made me thu

Post by _Sean » Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:04 am

Prakk wrote:
Sean wrote:"Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe."
I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,
"A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
That would be Psalm 92.

I don't see how this even remotely supports predestination.

Then there is that whole business about "Vessels of Wrath" in Romans 9,
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"
Romans 9-11 (really 1-11) speak of something much more important than predestination of individuals. In all honesty, there is a lot of scripture we can debate, but Romans 9-11 is the weakest you can use. I won't bother you with what I think it means unless you want to know. It's unfortunate really. Romans 9-11 is very important, but it seems reformers miss the drift of it because of tunnel vision. Put another way, if I was reformed, I'd use many other passages besides Romans 9-11 to make my case.

But to directly answer the verse you quoted: The vessels of wrath are those who rejected the Messiah and are being cut-off and will soon be "broken pottery" under the feet of the Romans in 70AD. Yes, this is God's doing. God formed Israel like a potter and destroyed them, the non-remant who reject the Messiah. This doesn't seem fair, but rejection of God leads to destruction. Jeremiah 18 explains this well.

Us being known before being born in Jeremiah 1,
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
And so on. I could go on.

Of course we are known before we are born, (fore)knowledge doesn't equate to double predestination. We have a will that the animals don't, we have moral judgement abilities that the animals don't have. There were times Jeremiah didn't want to speak but God's word burned inside him. If God predestined him to be a prophet, he wouldn't have been resistant to speaking, he would have lacked the will. I don't have any issue with God calling someone before birth for a purpose. This is not the same as double predestination to heaven/hell.

I fail to see how the problem is cured by saying that only some people are predestined in this way, but others are not.

Well, in context, some are predestined to be prophets, teachers, elders, etc. This is entirely different from predestining to heaven or hell. Calling some people for a specific task is another issue. Even Saul who God chose rejected God's word and was judged for it, so God replaced him with David. Saul didn't do what God commanded, Saul exercised his will, to his own demise.
Sean wrote:"I don't believe that regeneration preceeds belief. I believe that conviction does preceed belief though. If regeneration preceeded belief then unbelievers would be saved, not believers."
Prophets being selected before they were even conceived and children filled with the Holy Spirit and leaping in the womb suggest otherwise.

As I explained above, I don't see how this makes your case. You point to a few examples like Jeremiah and then say this now applies to salvation universally. Apples and oranges. Saul is an example of God's choice going "wrong". Saul rejected God's will and God rejected Saul. Saul was the variable in the equation.
Homer wrote:"Once again I will ask my question. If Calvinism is true, why did Jesus weep over sinners who would not repent?"
All men, lost or saved are made in the image of God. The intention of design in them speaks of another purpose, one that they do not serve if they are lost and vessels of wrath. This is certainly sad.
Hugh McBryde
How can this be sad if it was impossible to repent. You don't cry over the fact the grass is green, it's green by design.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:50 am

There are so many verses that contradict predestination it's hard to decide where to begin.
But can anyone answer WHY THE FATHER in the Prodical Son is so full of JOY when his son repents.
If predestination were operating the Father might be looking AT HIS WATCH and say OK now it just the precise time for my son to repent "so let the process begin."
The type of reaction the Father had indicated the Son came to this REALIZATION ON HIS OWN.
This parable as well as others speaks directly against predestination.
Was the Father just play acting his excitement?
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What's the only purpose of the wicked?

Post by _Prakk » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:02 am

Sean wrote:
Moi wrote:"I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,
"A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
That would be Psalm 92.
"I don't see how this even remotely supports predestination."
Really? The fact that they sprouted up quickly, like grass, only because they were to be destroyed forevermore. Their destruction is their purpose.

Hugh McBryde
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 20, 2005 9:55 am

I don't think that forevermore is an accurate translation whether in the hebrew or greek. I think in hebrew the word is "olam" which is like "aion" in greek meaning age or age abiding or ages and ages but not eternal. Since everyone is raised for judgement (John 5.29) destruction could only be until judgement day.
The fact is that though there are many verses that sound like predestination that does'nt mean God predestines everyone though he does exercise his sovreignty in some circumstances like in Mark 4.11 when Jesus prevented the Pharisees from understanding his parables. Or Jesus calling his disciples or God calling Moses etc it is for special circumstances only IMO.
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Nonetheless, there are many other passages

Post by _Prakk » Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:55 am

STEVE7150 wrote:"I don't think that forevermore is an accurate translation whether in the hebrew or greek."
I don't think the greek matters except in a "rosetta stone" framework. The Psalm was written in Hebrew.

Hugh McBryde
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:48 pm

I believe i said in the hebrew or greek. So "olam" in hebrew i believe does not mean eternal destruction and John 5.29 tells us everyone is raised to judgement and even in Ezekial 16.55 indicated Sodom is raised although they were first destroyed with fire and brimstone.
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