Outwardly they would seem to. Those that are lost though are spiritually dead and not capable of responding on that level. So insofar as the dead can choose, they choose not surprisingly, to stay dead. This is in accordance with their nature.Sean wrote:"Well, I don't have a problem with that. But I usually see Calvinists using the term 'dead' to mean somthing that it doesn't. Like total inability to respond to the gospel because 'dead men don't respond'."
Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe.Prakk wrote:Outwardly they would seem to. Those that are lost though are spiritually dead and not capable of responding on that level. So insofar as the dead can choose, they choose not surprisingly, to stay dead. This is in accordance with their nature.
Hugh McBryde
I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,Sean wrote:"Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe."
That would be Psalm 92. Then there is that whole business about "Vessels of Wrath" in Romans 9,"A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
Us being known before being born in Jeremiah 1,"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"
And so on. I could go on. I fail to see how the problem is cured by saying that only some people are predestined in this way, but others are not."Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Prophets being selected before they were even conceived and children filled with the Holy Spirit and leaping in the womb suggest otherwise.Sean wrote:"I don't believe that regeneration preceeds belief. I believe that conviction does preceed belief though. If regeneration preceeded belief then unbelievers would be saved, not believers."
All men, lost or saved are made in the image of God. The intention of design in them speaks of another purpose, one that they do not serve if they are lost and vessels of wrath. This is certainly sad.Homer wrote:"Once again I will ask my question. If Calvinism is true, why did Jesus weep over sinners who would not repent?"
How can this be sad if it was impossible to repent. You don't cry over the fact the grass is green, it's green by design.Prakk wrote:I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,Sean wrote:"Well, I would disagree. The conviction and power to believe the gospel does come from God, from the Holy Spirit. Even then some still refuse to believe and yet others repent and believe."That would be Psalm 92."A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
I don't see how this even remotely supports predestination.
Then there is that whole business about "Vessels of Wrath" in Romans 9,Romans 9-11 (really 1-11) speak of something much more important than predestination of individuals. In all honesty, there is a lot of scripture we can debate, but Romans 9-11 is the weakest you can use. I won't bother you with what I think it means unless you want to know. It's unfortunate really. Romans 9-11 is very important, but it seems reformers miss the drift of it because of tunnel vision. Put another way, if I was reformed, I'd use many other passages besides Romans 9-11 to make my case."What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"
But to directly answer the verse you quoted: The vessels of wrath are those who rejected the Messiah and are being cut-off and will soon be "broken pottery" under the feet of the Romans in 70AD. Yes, this is God's doing. God formed Israel like a potter and destroyed them, the non-remant who reject the Messiah. This doesn't seem fair, but rejection of God leads to destruction. Jeremiah 18 explains this well.
Us being known before being born in Jeremiah 1,And so on. I could go on."Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."
Of course we are known before we are born, (fore)knowledge doesn't equate to double predestination. We have a will that the animals don't, we have moral judgement abilities that the animals don't have. There were times Jeremiah didn't want to speak but God's word burned inside him. If God predestined him to be a prophet, he wouldn't have been resistant to speaking, he would have lacked the will. I don't have any issue with God calling someone before birth for a purpose. This is not the same as double predestination to heaven/hell.
I fail to see how the problem is cured by saying that only some people are predestined in this way, but others are not.
Well, in context, some are predestined to be prophets, teachers, elders, etc. This is entirely different from predestining to heaven or hell. Calling some people for a specific task is another issue. Even Saul who God chose rejected God's word and was judged for it, so God replaced him with David. Saul didn't do what God commanded, Saul exercised his will, to his own demise.
Prophets being selected before they were even conceived and children filled with the Holy Spirit and leaping in the womb suggest otherwise.Sean wrote:"I don't believe that regeneration preceeds belief. I believe that conviction does preceed belief though. If regeneration preceeded belief then unbelievers would be saved, not believers."
As I explained above, I don't see how this makes your case. You point to a few examples like Jeremiah and then say this now applies to salvation universally. Apples and oranges. Saul is an example of God's choice going "wrong". Saul rejected God's will and God rejected Saul. Saul was the variable in the equation.
All men, lost or saved are made in the image of God. The intention of design in them speaks of another purpose, one that they do not serve if they are lost and vessels of wrath. This is certainly sad.Homer wrote:"Once again I will ask my question. If Calvinism is true, why did Jesus weep over sinners who would not repent?"
Hugh McBryde
Really? The fact that they sprouted up quickly, like grass, only because they were to be destroyed forevermore. Their destruction is their purpose.Sean wrote:"I don't see how this even remotely supports predestination."Moi wrote:"I wouldn't know how to reply to you except to point to the whole drift of scripture, which favors absolute and double predestination throughout. It is even found in the Psalms,That would be Psalm 92."A senseless man has no knowledge, Nor does a stupid man understand this: That when the wicked sprouted up like grass And all who did iniquity flourished, It was only that they might be destroyed forevermore."
I don't think the greek matters except in a "rosetta stone" framework. The Psalm was written in Hebrew.STEVE7150 wrote:"I don't think that forevermore is an accurate translation whether in the hebrew or greek."