The Church of Christ and necessity of Baptism

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:20 pm

Its not your balance I am concerned about but God bless ya anyway.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:57 pm

It would seem to me Allyn that challenging your position brings out attack mode in you. You may want to think about that.

As far as The Word of God go' let's look at some of what it says.

1 Timothy 1
3As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work—which is by faith. 5The goal of this command is love, which comes from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 4
1In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

1 Timothy 2
4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

John 20:31 (New International Version)
31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. 3We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

1 John 2
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[d] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.

1 John 5
1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

2 John 1
1The elder,
To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth—and not I only, but also all who know the truth - 2because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:
3Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Father's Son, will be with us in truth and love.
4It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us.

7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. 9Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.

1 Timothy 6
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing.

2 Corinthians 11
4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

1 Corinthians 8:6 (New International Version)
6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Nope I don't see anything that says Jesus is Almighty God, or God incarnated into a Man, or that one is really three. And I do not see anything saying to go with the majority ether.

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father

Bless you, no matter what too.

Post by **_Allyn** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:08 pm

Attack Mode? I thought I was being rather gracious. Oh well, just goes to show, one can't depend on what they read.

Post by **_schoel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:29 pm

JesusFollower wrote:Nope I don't see anything that says Jesus is Almighty God, or God incarnated into a Man, or that one is really three. And I do not see anything saying to go with the majority ether.

What about John 1?

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:43 pm

Homer read your explanation of Eph. 4:5, I think that is a stretch and speculation, big time, whatever.

Scheol, As for John 1:1
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... age&pid=85

Another thought.

Post by **_Sean** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:23 pm

Jesusfollower wrote: Nope I don't see anything that says Jesus is Almighty God, or God incarnated into a Man, or that one is really three. And I do not see anything saying to go with the majority ether.

6yet for us there is but one God, the Father

Bless you, no matter what too.

Heb 1:8 But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
Col 1:19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,

I seems that God calls Jesus "God" in Hebrews 1.

Pauls says God created all things:

Eph 3:9 and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things,

Then Paul says Jesus created all things and that Jesus is before all things. That would include any created things.

Joh 1:3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Who was Jesus's father? It wasn't Joseph, it wasn't any man.

Phi 3:3 For we are the real circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh--

Gal 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts,

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

Who's Spirit dwells with us? Is it the Spirit of Christ? of God? the Holy Spirit? Paul uses these interchangeably, showing they are equal.

Who is this prophecy about?

Isa 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

and,

Rev 1:7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Rev 2:8 "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: 'The words of the first and the last, who died and came to life.

Who was pierced? Who died and came to life? The one who calls Himself the "First and the Last"

Isa 44:6 Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.

Isa 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
Isa 43:11 I, I am the LORD (Jehovah), and besides me there is no savior

Tit 2:13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,.

So is Jesus our Savior or God?
Just a few verses to think about.

Post by **_Sean** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:58 pm

Jesusfollower wrote:Mr. Allyn, I think you are the one doing the ignoring, which is the root word of ignorance, and yes I completely disregard the O/T(NOT).

Isaiah 9:6
“And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace….” (NIV)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Trinitarians should admit that this verse is translated improperly just from the fact that Jesus is never called the “Everlasting Father” anywhere else in Scripture. Indeed, Trinitarians correctly deny that Jesus is the “Everlasting Father.”

Sorry to dissapoint you but Jesus is the everlasting father. So not only do I disagree with you but I also disagree with "trinitarian doctrine" as the creeds define.

Joh 14:8 Philip said to him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."
Joh 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
Joh 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

Jesus couldn't believe the question. When asked to see the father, Jesus said that He was right there in front of him. Just as Paul said the fullness of deity dwelled in Him. Unless you think Jesus is the Father, just not the everlasting Father. But that doesn't make sense. So either Jesus is telling the truth or He is not.

I believe Him.

Post by **_schoel** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:00 am

Jesusfollower:

Thanks for the link. It made some interesting points, but I found it ultimately untenable.

1) The link asserts:

There is no pre-existence for Jesus in this verse other than his figurative “existence” as the plan, purpose or wisdom of God for the salvation of man.

However, the opposite is also true. There isn't anything in John 1 that says that the Son's existence began with the incarnation.

2) Why does Jesus accept worship when the Scriptures teach that we are to worship God alone?

3) Colossians 1:15-20

Also, please remember that this is a discussion forum, not a link-posting forum. I would appreciate your thoughts and interaction with the Bible.

Post by **_Jesusfollower** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:58 am

Sheol, Sean, this thread is about Baptism.
Scheol, my thoughts on this are laid out in a 572 page book "One God, One Lord, Reconsidering the Cornerstone Of Christianity" and all the historical proof an cross reference is there. Do you want me to write a 572 page book to untangle something that has been taught and instituted for 2000 years at the edge of a sword, so that it became Orthodox, by the Roman Catholic Church?

Sean, it says he is the Image of the invisible God, an image is not the person himself, It also says he is the first born of all creation, firstborn of all creation" he was created, God is not created. The word God in the Bible is used of many people in the Bible and we can not see that readily in our Bibles, but yes God does calls him god just as many others(the agents of God) are called gods, like moses and others. He is much more than all of them because as you say 'his Father is Yahweh" his blood does not come from Adam, as does the rest of us. He is, throughout the scripture paralleled with Adam because he is a Man. Even in his exalted state (Acts 2.33) he is still a man (1 Tim. 2.5). And what a Man, Adam blew it Jesus Did not. And kept himself pure, Thru the life he lived, battered by the devil whom Adam handed the dominion of this world, and defeated him openly in warfare. So THAT is the short answer. We can Worship who God has exalted also. Amen and Bless Jesus our Lord. By the way, the link has similar explanations to all the verses commonly used by trinitarians, in other words all of the above verses you use. It is all in the way it is understood.

Post by **_Evangelion** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:23 pm

Hey guys, just a suggestion - perhaps this discussion should be continued on a new thread?