The Church of Christ and necessity of Baptism

_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Sun Jun 04, 2006 12:05 am

Homer wrote:
In the commission in Mathew 28:19 Jesus told his disciples, and all who would follow after, (note v.20) to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into (greek word eis denoting movement from one place or state into another) the name (person) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." This baptism is something we are to perform. Please explain to me, from the scriptures, how I can baptize someone with the Holy Spirit rather than with water, or better yet tell me how you do it. If we are to obey Jesus, we ought to know this, should't we?
How about the laying on of hands? That's what Paul did in Acts 19:6

Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

This seems to imply being baptized into Jesus is a water baptism followed by a Holy Spirit baptism by the laying on of hands.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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_Evangelion
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Post by _Evangelion » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:23 am

Sean wrote:
Homer wrote:
In the commission in Mathew 28:19 Jesus told his disciples, and all who would follow after, (note v.20) to "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into (greek word eis denoting movement from one place or state into another) the name (person) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." This baptism is something we are to perform. Please explain to me, from the scriptures, how I can baptize someone with the Holy Spirit rather than with water, or better yet tell me how you do it. If we are to obey Jesus, we ought to know this, should't we?
How about the laying on of hands? That's what Paul did in Acts 19:6

Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

This seems to imply being baptized into Jesus is a water baptism followed by a Holy Spirit baptism by the laying on of hands.
Yet the Ethiopian eunuch was merely baptised in water; he did not receive the Holy Spirit, nor even the laying on of hands.
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_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Sun Jun 04, 2006 2:37 am

Evangelion wrote: Yet the Ethiopian eunuch was merely baptised in water; he did not receive the Holy Spirit, nor even the laying on of hands.
Well, the text doesn't give those details either way. It doesn't mean they didn't happen. Just as some Gospels have more details than others about a particular event.

Either way, it doesn't negate what Paul did in the passage I quoted.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Jun 04, 2006 6:20 am

Thanks Homer. Great points to consider.

Thanks Sean. You have made the arguement favoring two Baptisms.

Jesusfollower, "got ya :shock: "
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_Evangelion
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Post by _Evangelion » Sun Jun 04, 2006 7:40 am

Sean wrote:
Evangelion wrote: Yet the Ethiopian eunuch was merely baptised in water; he did not receive the Holy Spirit, nor even the laying on of hands.
Well, the text doesn't give those details either way. It doesn't mean they didn't happen. Just as some Gospels have more details than others about a particular event.
If it happened, I'd expect to be told that it had happened - not least because we are usually told when it did happen.
Either way, it doesn't negate what Paul did in the passage I quoted.
No, it doesn't. But your quotes from Paul do not prove that newly baptised people always received the Holy Spirit.
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_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Sun Jun 04, 2006 9:34 am

I don't think so Allyn, and Sean, I think both times the laying on of hands was involved it was because the people were bewitched or taught the baptism of John and not the baptism of holy spirit.
Homer, I have done my homework and it is plain as the nose on my face. Jesus said "John baptized with water but you will be baptized with holy spirit." As far as Matt. 28:19, I say there is no water in the word baptize, the spirit has replaced the water an old regulation, people on the other hand seek ritual to confirm what God has done. The Jewish nation did, continually in the old testament. Nothing has changed with people, especially religious ones making up their own regulations.
Bottom line: is it sin to baptize? no, but it is sin to teach something is required that is not.
A couple of last thoughts 1) I've given you the info to study on, 2) Romans 10:9-10 is all that is required

God opened the avenue for all people to be saved through his Son Jesus, I for one am glad it is his decision and not yours.
Allyn "got ya" means, "I understand you, you are coming through loud and clear." Not a poke. But thanks for the friendly Christian exchange.
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:54 am

I don't think so Allyn, and Sean, I think both times the laying on of hands was involved it was because the people were bewitched or taught the baptism of John and not the baptism of holy spirit.
Oh really? And where is it said that we should not baptise with water as it is not the likeness of Christ's death, burial and raising?

I believe you are reading what you want out of it rather than the examples we have to illustrate what was actually practiced. However, I will not argue with you over this. The Bible is clear on this subject and you have been given ample proof to meet all neccessary requirements.
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:57 am

Every instance of the word "baptize" or "baptism" in the New Testament refers to baptism in water, except when specifically stated as baptism in the spirit, or the baptism of fire, or the baptism to which Jesus referred when He said, "Are you able ....to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"


Peter wrote of the baptism "which now saves you".

1 Peter 3:21 The antitype, baptism, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...

Peter states that this baptism does not merely remove some dirt from the body, but is an appeal to God for a clear conscience.

There is no possibility that baptism in the spirit would remove dirt from the body. So this "baptism which now saves you" is a baptism in water.

Peter indicated that such baptism is an antitype of the eight persons on the ark who were saved through water.

The ark floated on top of water. It was not carried aloft by the wind.
The antitype of wind would be spirit. But this was water.

I am not suggesting that the waters of baptism itself has efficacy. Rather when one experiences a true baptism in water, the act is itself a type of what happens within. While one is merely going under the water outwardly, one is dying to sin and being buried. When one comes up out of the water outwardly, one inwardly comes alive again to a new life in Christ Jesus.
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_Jesusfollower
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Post by _Jesusfollower » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:18 am

As for me and my household, I will go with the Lord, all of your man made ritual is ridiculous, if my conversion came in the desert before dieing of dehydration there is no water, in the words of Judge Judy, if it does not make any sense it probably is not true, God makes the decisions, not you, paridon look at that again it is saying water can do nothing. I think you are all addicted to ritual, and the way you have been doing things. Follow my link and read through what John is saying and what the word says, men are the mouthpece for God, That is part of what the story of the Eunuch is saying 'lest some man guide me'.
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Sun Jun 04, 2006 11:47 am

Sorry Mr. Follower, to follow your link would be an exercise I choose not to take based on your current understanding. But it was nice to have you here to challenge us.

God bless as you start your journey in the adventure of faith.
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