The Church of Christ and necessity of Baptism

[Guest]

Evangelion wrote:

It's not essential, but it is commanded and should be performed if possible.

This is a common understanding, however I don't believe it was shared by the early Christians. It is certainly not the understanding I get from reading the NT passages that describe the meaning of baptism.

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:11-14 ESV)

This passage pictures our baptism as the time when God made us alive through our faith in His power. Baptism is certainly not pictured as incidental. How could Paul have considered it unnecessary?

Why the aversion to recognizing a deep significance in our baptism?

Let me know.

[_Allyn]

I am of the opinion that water Baptism is essential. It was foreshadowed by water purification whenever before the Jew entered the Temple for worship (baptisimal pools were built at the temple gates and have been uncovered by archeologists). NT Baptism is also a purification act in that it washes us clean of our sin, 1Peter 3:21. It has never been done away with like that of other OT rites (circumcision, sacrificial rituals, Sabbath keeping and maybe more). Instead, water Baptism has been made perfect by its fullness in Christ and our participation in it.

[Guest]

Acts 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 11:16 (New International Version)

16Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[a]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'

Acts 18:24-28
(24) Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.
(25) He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John [the baptism in water unto repentance].
(26) He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately [i.e., that “the way of God” was no longer the “baptism of John”].
(27) When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
(28) For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:1-6
(1) While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus [where Apollos had just been teaching “only the baptism” of John]. There he found some disciples
(2) and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit [holy spirit].” [2]
(3) So Paul asked them, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied.
(4) Paul said, “John’s baptism [into water] was [note the past tense] a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”

Sounds to me like the water baptism was replaced by being immersed in the gift of holy spirit.

John 4:13-14
(13) Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again,
(14) but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Acts 2:33
“Exalted to the right hand of God, he [Jesus] has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit [holy spirit] and has poured out [like water] what you now see and hear.”

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, “I baptize you with water. But [in contrast] one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit [no article “the”: holy spirit, the gift] and with fire.”

Hebrews 10:1
The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.

Romans 10:9
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

No water there.

Hebrews 7:18-19
(18) The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless
(19) (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 9:9-10
(9) This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and the sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshipper.
(10) They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings [baptismos]—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Hebrews 9:14
How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

1 Peter 3:20-21
(20) who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
(21) and this water symbolizes baptism [an immersion] that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body [i.e., not water baptism] but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ…

Ephesians 4:4-6
(4) There is one body and one Spirit [spirit]—just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
(5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
(6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

One Baptism that sounds like it sums that up.

Colossians 2:11-12
(11) In him [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with the circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
(12) having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were [sinners, as per verses 9 and 10]. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit [spirit] of our God.

The old water baptism was only a type and indicator of the greater baptism of holy spirit that was to come, the one baptism for the Church. In the above verse, “washed” does not refer to water. As we have seen “the name of Jesus Christ” represents the authority of Jesus Christ, which each Christian has via holy spirit within.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we [Christians] were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all given the one Spirit [spirit] to drink. [13]

On page 99 of his book, Baptism, Donald Lake’s comment on this section of Scripture is most pertinent:

That Paul did not conceive of baptism as an essential saving element is clearly indicated by 1 Corinthians 1:10-18. For Paul, there seems to be one essential baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit by which we are incorporated into the body of Christ (cf. 12:12 and 13; Eph. 4:4 and 5). The rest of the New Testament corpus does not present a unified picture regarding the meaning and administration of baptism.

Titus 3:3-8
(3) At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another.
(4) But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared,
(5) he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit [holy spirit],
(6) whom [which] he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior,
(7) so that, having become justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life [life in the coming age].
(8) This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

I am convinced by scripture that water was replaced by holy spirit and being baptized into Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior

[_Allyn]

Acts 8:35-37
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Sounds like water baptism to me.

Must We Be Baptized For The Forgiveness Of Our Sins?
In the second chapter of Acts, Peter had convicted the people there of having killed the Son of God. In verse 37 their question was, "Men and brethren what shall we do?" In verse 38 (KJV), "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins." Here people were told to repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins. Only when we submit to baptism as the Lord has commanded, that is for the remission of sins to be saved, do we show our faith in the Lord. Only then will He save us.
Read the complete article

[Guest]

Evangelion wrote:

It's not essential, but it is commanded and should be performed if possible.

This is a common understanding, however I don't believe it was shared by the early Christians. It is certainly not the understanding I get from reading the NT passages that describe the meaning of baptism.

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (Col 2:11-14 ESV)

This passage pictures our baptism as the time when God made us alive through our faith in His power. Baptism is certainly not pictured as incidental. How could Paul have considered it unnecessary?

You misunderstand me. I am not saying that it is unnecessary; I merely believe that in extreme cases (such as the case of the thief on the cross) it is possible for God to save someone who has not been baptised.

When I say that I do not believe it is essential, I mean that I do not believe it is essential for salvation in the case of a believer who (for whatever reason) has not been baptised before their death. The thief on the cross was one such believer; Jesus could confidently state that he would be saved, for God is capable of transcending His Law in order to save a believer at His discretion.

I believe that baptism is necessary, since it brings us into a covenant relationship with God, and it is the act by which we publicly declare our faith, recognise the need for forgiveness and repentence, and symbolically enact our death and resurrection.

I also believe that a believer who deliberately refuses to be baptised, despite being able to do so, is in danger of being rejected at the Judgement.

Why the aversion to recognizing a deep significance in our baptism?

I have no such aversion!

[Guest]

Allyn,
Yes it does. It also sounds like a Jew still zealous for the old laws, which they did not change over night, you think maybe?
Anyway that does not explain Ephesians 4:4-6 does it? Ephesians is addressed to the Church.

[Guest]

I am of the opinion that water Baptism is essential. It was foreshadowed by water purification whenever before the Jew entered the Temple for worship (baptisimal pools were built at the temple gates and have been uncovered by archeologists). NT Baptism is also a purification act in that it washes us clean of our sin, 1Peter 3:21. It has never been done away with like that of other OT rites (circumcision, sacrificial rituals, Sabbath keeping and maybe more). Instead, water Baptism has been made perfect by its fullness in Christ and our participation in it.

I agree with all of this; I simply understand that in certain (extreme) cases, a believer who has not been baptised before his or her death, may be saved at God's discretion.

Hence (once again) the example of the thief on the cross.

Here is my position on baptism, as defined and described in my own Statement of Faith:

• Those who enter into a covenant relationship with God through belief, repentance and water baptism by full immersion (a symbolic act which represents death, resurrection and a cleansing from sin) [46] become the children of God, sharing in His love and the promises made to His people. [47] Together they constitute one body of believers [48] – “the body of Christ” (I Corinthians 12:27) as “brethren in Christ” (Colossians 1:2) – equal before him regardless of gender, nationality or personal circumstances. [49]
  
  _________________
  
  [46] Matthew 26:28-29; Mark 16:16; Luke 24:46-47; Acts 2:37-38, 41; Acts 3:19; Acts 8:12; Acts 16:31-33; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:1-4; Hebrews 9:13-15; I Peter 3:18-21; I John 1:9.
  
  [47] Romans 8:14-17; Galatians 3:13-14, 26-29; I John 3:9-10; I John 5:2.
  
  [48] Romans 13:4-5; I Corinthians 10:16-17; I Corinthians 12:12-13.
  
  [49] Romans 13:3-5; I Corinthians 12:12-20; Galatians 3:26-29.

Source. 8)

[Guest]

Yet another doctrine and commandments of men as far as I can see.
The thief on the cross was not part of the Church Evangelion. Even if that were not the case, if I am understand you,
God commands some things for some of us but they do not apply to all in certain circumstances?

[Guest]

Allyn, also the only water in the word baptize is in our heads from our culture, same go's for the Jewish mindset. We are immersed in the gift of holy spirit. That makes no sense to you?

[_Allyn]

Jesusfollower, you said:

Yes it does. It also sounds like a Jew still zealous for the old laws, which they did not change over night, you think maybe?

He may have been a blood Jew or a converted Jew, I don't know. But what is apparent is that for the Ethiopian to have known of the importance of Baptism as a part of the Christian faith he would have had to be preached that by Phillip. The Ethiopian was reading from one of the prophets and Phillip picked up from there and preached the Gospel. The man may have been or not familiar with the Jewish custom of purification but that in itself would not prompt him to want to submit to baptism simply because Phillip taught him concerning Christ unless Phillip made him aware of the importance.

Concerning the thief on the cross who was told he would be in paridise that day with Christ, some believe that the baptism of water for the remission of sin could not have been instituted until after Christ's resurrection since the sacrifice for sin by Christ would not have had significance unless He had raised from the dead. Therefore this man was under the old law and along with others of OT faith he would have been in paridise instead of in the presence of the Lord until after the asscension.