401k's and retirement funds

[Guest]

This is a great question! I have chosen to set aside savings for retirement for my wife and I, for I will need to quit secular work at some point in the distant future - at least when I get too old.

I find it hard to judge what a wise amount/percentage of income is appropriate to set aside for the future. On one hand, choosing an excessively large amount would be 'trusting in money', but on the other hand choosing to little is not prudent either. I've once tried to do mathematical calculations to determine what would be reasonable, but it quickly became clear that life's uncertainities make such a calculation impossible.

This is probably an impossible question to answer, but does anyone have advice on finding a balance between saving 'too much' and 'too little' for retirement?

Pete

[Guest]

I'm confused. You said:

More than once he refused those who gave from the motive of being concerned for the well-being of the
orphans.

Is this what you meant to say? Sounds like he thought mercy was a wrong motive for giving. Please clarify.

Yes indeed, that is what I meant to say! Have you ever read George Müller's diary, Homer?

Müller also gave away his money if had enough to cover the costs of the orphans. If the orphans were eating well, and had enough clothes, and he had money left over, he would give it away to missionaries, etc.

One of John Wesley's sermon's on money isn't half-bad:

http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Vo ... Money.html

Yours,

Loaves

[Guest]

Hey everybody,

I'm joining in this a bit late, but as a former 'unsuccessful' financial advisor in Canada, here is my 2 cents:

- I have also struggled with this and I think we need Biblical values on savings and the goods/services that these funds eventually are used to purchase
- In Canada, we have RSPs.. one nice thing is that you can cash out early and use the funds to support yourself before you're 'retirement' age..
- We do have an RSP (mind you it it tiny)
- It is difficult to know how/where to invest it, because the most common vehicle (mutual funds) doesn't give you much control over the actual investments
- Financial advisors use fear based selling to sell investments, life insurance, etc.. I am not saying that they are not 'needed', but that they are oversold in my opinion. I have some retirement planning software that helps you figure out how much to save, assuming growth of funds, etc.. Well, in Canada, most people say that the government programs will be gone, so that when they project what you need, you need alot more than if the plans are still in tact. Assuming the plans are around, and you own your home, and you're not going to travel a whole lot, you won't really need that much (relatively speaking) to get by.
- I believe the more you have the more you worry about it. I have seen this again and again.

Les

PS I ended up spending more money trying to get clients than I made on them because I was trying to help out the little guy...

[Guest]

Here is another thought on the subject:

Luke 12: 16-21 -

16And He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man was very productive.

17"And he began reasoning to himself, saying, 'What shall I do, since I have no place to store my crops?'

18"Then he said, 'This is what I will do: I will tear down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods.

19'And I will say to my soul, "Soul, you have many goods laid up for many years to come; take your ease, eat, drink and be merry."'

20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your soul is required of you; and now who will own what you have prepared?'

21"So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God."

It doesn't appear that Jesus is condemning the man for storing his crops and being prepared, but for being greedy and not sharing from his abundance. I think Jesus rewards good stewardship and I see no problem with keeping a retirement. If abundance comes from your retirement fund than I suggest sharing with others who weren't as fortunate in their retirement. I think God makes us work together in this fashion. He blesses some more financially than others, so that we may take care of others less fortunate than ourseleves. So, we become dependent on each other and learn the lesson of humility.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You said:

Yes indeed, that is what I meant to say! Have you ever read George Müller's diary, Homer?

Haven't read it and probably won't, my "backlog" now is such that I will probably not finish in my lifetime and it seems somehow to keep growing!

His whole purpose in setting up the orphanage was to demonstrate to the world what God could do without any help from man. Having a heart for the orphans is wonderful, but if George had accepted gifts on this ground, he felt that this would be man's doing. He accepted gifts only if the giver could convince him that God had specifically sent him with that gift. Then George felt that all of the glory for providing for the orphans would go to God.

If a person read the word of God and discovered God's concern for the orphan, read what our Lord said about mercy (that is in the biblical sense of acting on behalf of another), and while meditating on God's word formed the idea he ought to help the orphans, would George have rejected this as not being "sent from God"? If so, in what manner would the "sending" have to occur to be acceptable?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just to understand George's view regarding motives for giving.

[Guest]

Another question:

Does it concern anyone that the mutual funds or investments they may have in their 401k or retirement account are involved in immoral businesses (i.e. pornography, cigarettes, abortions, etc)?

[Guest]

Another question:

Does it concern anyone that the mutual funds or investments they may have in their 401k or retirement account are involved in immoral businesses (i.e. pornography, cigarettes, abortions, etc)?

Also, what about patronizing (sp??) companies that hold immoral policies? K-Mart, for example? I believe Focus-on-the-Family puts out such a list. From this list, you can see who supports what.

I was amazed when I found out the Exxon-Mobil Gas company is pro-life!

Yours,

[Guest]

Another question:

Does it concern anyone that the mutual funds or investments they may have in their 401k or retirement account are involved in immoral businesses (i.e. pornography, cigarettes, abortions, etc)?

Good question. I guess I would have to answer that with another question. If we invest our money in company A which appears to be an honest business and then that Company A buys Company B, which is of irreputable character, should we pull our money, even though Company A does business that is not morally questionable? This is also under the assumption that Company B is still acting as a separate entity.

Also, this might be a biblical stretch, but what about the example of the prodigal son? Did the Father do something wrong by giving the son his inheritance money right away even with the possibility of knowing it was going to be spent on immoral activities? Or was it an act of trust in hoping the money was going to be spent for good and not evil? Like I said it is a stretch.

[Guest]

Another question:

Does it concern anyone that the mutual funds or investments they may have in their 401k or retirement account are involved in immoral businesses (i.e. pornography, cigarettes, abortions, etc)?

Good question. I guess I would have to answer that with another question. If we invest our money in company A which appears to be an honest business and then that Company A buys Company B, which is of irreputable character, should we pull our money, even though Company A does business that is not morally questionable? This is also under the assumption that Company B is still acting as a separate entity.

Also, this might be a biblical stretch, but what about the example of the prodigal son? Did the Father do something wrong by giving the son his inheritance money right away even with the possibility of knowing it was going to be spent on immoral activities? Or was it an act of trust in hoping the money was going to be spent for good and not evil? Like I said it is a stretch.

I addition, how can we hardly function if we don't use products made by INTEL, Microsoft, etc? I try to patronize "Christian" companies (for what it's worth), but in this day-and-age there is almost a necessity of patronizing secular companies as well.

Any thoughts??

[Guest]

Another question:

Does it concern anyone that the mutual funds or investments they may have in their 401k or retirement account are involved in immoral businesses (i.e. pornography, cigarettes, abortions, etc)?

Good question. I guess I would have to answer that with another question. If we invest our money in company A which appears to be an honest business and then that Company A buys Company B, which is of irreputable character, should we pull our money, even though Company A does business that is not morally questionable? This is also under the assumption that Company B is still acting as a separate entity.

Also, this might be a biblical stretch, but what about the example of the prodigal son? Did the Father do something wrong by giving the son his inheritance money right away even with the possibility of knowing it was going to be spent on immoral activities? Or was it an act of trust in hoping the money was going to be spent for good and not evil? Like I said it is a stretch.

In your first investment analogy, the investor is knowingly selecting a company that they consider honest and amoral. However, a 401k investor cannot select the companies. They are provided with a list of funds from their employer and have no control over the companies that whose stock comprise the fund.

Your second analogy applies in giving money away, but does the same apply when investing money to return a profit?

To all:

I'm currently wrestling with this issue and am looking at the following 2 options:
1) Invest in my companies 401k program, and they'll match my funds up to a certain amount. However, I have no control over what businesses I will invest in (ie. porn, abortion, etc).
2) Invest into a Christian-ethics based IRA. I lose my companies matching amount, but have reassurance that I'm not profiting from sin or vice.

Have you struggled with this and have come to a conclusion?
Thoughts?