Understanding of John 16:13
Understanding of John 16:13
Steve, et al,
It is rather commonly assumed that the promise in John 16:13 applies to Christians today: "..when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...". This idea is most puzzling to me. What is there in the text that would make anyone think so? The words in this passage, indeed the entire context, appear to be addressed to the Apostles and them alone. By what logic are they applicable to Christians today, or any other than the Apostles, for that matter?
It seems to me this promise is the basis for the authority of all doctrine in scripture subsequent to Christ's teachings. If the promise applies to us, then what we write should be as authoritative as the writings of the Apostles, should it not? Surely if it applies to us, it applies in the same way it did to the Apostles. There is nothing to indicate it applies to them in one degree and us in a lesser sense, unless I am missing something.
Perhaps this idea is behind the Catholic Church dogma that the Apostles were succeeded by a Pope who is infallible?
I often find myself in disagreement with J. Vernon McGee but I heard him say in regard to this verse "everything spoken in scripture is spoken for us, but not everything was spoken to us". I believe he made a wise observation.
If the statement in John 16:13 applies to us, why are we so divided in opinion? I do not believe the Spirit was sent to make so many Baptists, so many Methodists, so many Presbyterians, &c. If it is argued that the process of "guiding us into all truth" takes considerable time, what confidence do we have that the Apostles arrived at the truth before they died?
It is rather commonly assumed that the promise in John 16:13 applies to Christians today: "..when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...". This idea is most puzzling to me. What is there in the text that would make anyone think so? The words in this passage, indeed the entire context, appear to be addressed to the Apostles and them alone. By what logic are they applicable to Christians today, or any other than the Apostles, for that matter?
It seems to me this promise is the basis for the authority of all doctrine in scripture subsequent to Christ's teachings. If the promise applies to us, then what we write should be as authoritative as the writings of the Apostles, should it not? Surely if it applies to us, it applies in the same way it did to the Apostles. There is nothing to indicate it applies to them in one degree and us in a lesser sense, unless I am missing something.
Perhaps this idea is behind the Catholic Church dogma that the Apostles were succeeded by a Pope who is infallible?
I often find myself in disagreement with J. Vernon McGee but I heard him say in regard to this verse "everything spoken in scripture is spoken for us, but not everything was spoken to us". I believe he made a wise observation.
If the statement in John 16:13 applies to us, why are we so divided in opinion? I do not believe the Spirit was sent to make so many Baptists, so many Methodists, so many Presbyterians, &c. If it is argued that the process of "guiding us into all truth" takes considerable time, what confidence do we have that the Apostles arrived at the truth before they died?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer,
I concur. If this promise was given to all Christians, it seems odd the Paul would have to write so often in correcting erroneous doctrine. Either the average Christian was not led into all truth, or the average Christian did not follow the leading very well.
I concur. If this promise was given to all Christians, it seems odd the Paul would have to write so often in correcting erroneous doctrine. Either the average Christian was not led into all truth, or the average Christian did not follow the leading very well.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
- _chriscarani
- Posts: 153
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Acts 15:6
"Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
I think it does apply to us. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing about the meaning of scripture, but it is not the Holy Spirit which divides Brother and Sister. A darker force compels us to sever our bond in Christ.
"Now the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. 7 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”
I think it does apply to us. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing about the meaning of scripture, but it is not the Holy Spirit which divides Brother and Sister. A darker force compels us to sever our bond in Christ.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
WWMTLFSMM
- _brody_in_ga
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:55 pm
- Location: Richland Ga
Hi
Hi Homer,
Do you think that this verse applies to Christians: 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."?
I think the John passage can be applied to Christians. I don't believe that we can "add" to scripture, as the church was built on the foundation of the Apostles and Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. I do believe that we as believers have authority to preach remission of sins to everyone who will recieve Jesus as Lord.
While I agree with with this statement ""everything spoken in scripture is spoken for us, but not everything was spoken to us"."
I don't think it would apply in this circumstance.
I could be wrong though, but I believe that Christians are lead to all truth at one time. Ofcourse I don't mean this in the sence of knowing every doctrine(Eschatology, sotierology, ETC..) perfectly. But rather in the sence of maturing as a believer and disciple.
God bless everyone here.
Do you think that this verse applies to Christians: 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."?
I think the John passage can be applied to Christians. I don't believe that we can "add" to scripture, as the church was built on the foundation of the Apostles and Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. I do believe that we as believers have authority to preach remission of sins to everyone who will recieve Jesus as Lord.
While I agree with with this statement ""everything spoken in scripture is spoken for us, but not everything was spoken to us"."
I don't think it would apply in this circumstance.
I could be wrong though, but I believe that Christians are lead to all truth at one time. Ofcourse I don't mean this in the sence of knowing every doctrine(Eschatology, sotierology, ETC..) perfectly. But rather in the sence of maturing as a believer and disciple.
God bless everyone here.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
Brody,
Consider also that Christ commanded that we are to make disciples by teaching them, Matthew 28:20, and that men are gifted by the grace of God as teachers, Romans 12:7.
Acts 8:30-31: "And when Phillip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'do you understand what you are reading?' And he said 'Well, how could I unless someone guides me?' We can always use the help of capable teachers. That is why God has gifted men such as Steve, but as I am sure he would agree, he is still fallible. We can learn from one another.
Jesus is truth. Truth is not relative, it is not as the post-modernist believes, different for each person. When Christians disagree about a doctrine, we can be sure one or both hasn't been "led into all truth".
I do not believe this passage contradicts my understanding of John 16:13 at all. I do not believe this passage means what it seems to mean at first glance. How can John mean that they did not need any man to teach them when he, a man, is teaching them by the very epistle these words are contained in?Do you think that this verse applies to Christians: 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hathtaught you, ye shall abide in him."? I don't think it would apply in this circumstance.
Consider also that Christ commanded that we are to make disciples by teaching them, Matthew 28:20, and that men are gifted by the grace of God as teachers, Romans 12:7.
Acts 8:30-31: "And when Phillip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'do you understand what you are reading?' And he said 'Well, how could I unless someone guides me?' We can always use the help of capable teachers. That is why God has gifted men such as Steve, but as I am sure he would agree, he is still fallible. We can learn from one another.
Jesus is truth. Truth is not relative, it is not as the post-modernist believes, different for each person. When Christians disagree about a doctrine, we can be sure one or both hasn't been "led into all truth".
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Homer,
I believe as brody does on this. The fact that the Holy Spirit leads all believers into all truth does not mean that all of our present views are correct. It would suggest, though, that all true believers are experiencing the process of growth in their understanding of the truth, and that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the directing. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Rom.8:14).
I believe as brody does on this. The fact that the Holy Spirit leads all believers into all truth does not mean that all of our present views are correct. It would suggest, though, that all true believers are experiencing the process of growth in their understanding of the truth, and that the Holy Spirit is the one doing the directing. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God" (Rom.8:14).
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
- _brody_in_ga
- Posts: 237
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- Location: Richland Ga
Homer wrote:Brody,
I do not believe this passage contradicts my understanding of John 16:13 at all. I do not believe this passage means what it seems to mean at first glance. How can John mean that they did not need any man to teach them when he, a man, is teaching them by the very epistle these words are contained in?Do you think that this verse applies to Christians: 1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hathtaught you, ye shall abide in him."? I don't think it would apply in this circumstance.
Consider also that Christ commanded that we are to make disciples by teaching them, Matthew 28:20, and that men are gifted by the grace of God as teachers, Romans 12:7.
Acts 8:30-31: "And when Phillip had run up, he heard him reading Isaiah the prophet, and said, 'do you understand what you are reading?' And he said 'Well, how could I unless someone guides me?' We can always use the help of capable teachers. That is why God has gifted men such as Steve, but as I am sure he would agree, he is still fallible. We can learn from one another.
Jesus is truth. Truth is not relative, it is not as the post-modernist believes, different for each person. When Christians disagree about a doctrine, we can be sure one or both hasn't been "led into all truth".
Hi Homer,
You made some good points, and I agree with you on certain statements you made. The Ethiopion needed someone to teach him because he didn't have the Holy Spirit at the moment he was reading Isaiah. And I also agree that God gives some the gift of teaching, such as Steve and a few others here. But even they will admit that they could be wrong on certain subjects, as we all should. But that doesn't annul the fact that the Holy Spirit is teaching and leading them in "all truth." I don't think there will ever come a time that we will agree on every subject that is secondary in my opinion. I do think that we should strive for unity in the faith though.
My wife attends a Baptist church, I am a Charismatic, Calmenian, Partial Pret, Amillerite..LOL, but I fellowship with others who sincerely love Jesus and want more of the truth. I believe that the Holy Spirit is leading them to, and that they don't need anyone to teach them. Because if they want the truth as it pertains to a certain doctrine or teaching, the Holy Spirit will get them there.
God bless.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29
Hebrews 12:29
Steve, et al,
In John 16:13 in the Greek we find the preposition eis translated "into" as in "into all truth". As you are probably aware, this preposition can be and is translated as "toward" in various places. If this was done, we would have Jesus saying the Spirit will "guide us toward all truth", which makes sense in our case but in the case of the apostles in regard to their message is obviously very troubling. Did they arrive at "all truth" no more accurately than we do? If the promise is to them as well as to us, what confidence can we have in the accuracy of what they said and wrote? And where do we find any scriptural support in the text, or elsewhere, for the passage referring to the apostles in one degree and to us in another?
Blessings, Homer
In John 16:13 in the Greek we find the preposition eis translated "into" as in "into all truth". As you are probably aware, this preposition can be and is translated as "toward" in various places. If this was done, we would have Jesus saying the Spirit will "guide us toward all truth", which makes sense in our case but in the case of the apostles in regard to their message is obviously very troubling. Did they arrive at "all truth" no more accurately than we do? If the promise is to them as well as to us, what confidence can we have in the accuracy of what they said and wrote? And where do we find any scriptural support in the text, or elsewhere, for the passage referring to the apostles in one degree and to us in another?
Blessings, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
Brody,
You wrote:
I was raised in the Church of Christ, my wife has an Assembly of God background, one son and his family attend a Baptist church, the other a Covenant church, and last count I had seven Baptist pastors on my mom's side of the family, among several other relatives that are Church of Christ. We attend an independent Christian Church. I guess I'm a mongrel in search of truth.
Blessings, Homer
You wrote:
This idea is very troubling to me for more than one reason. In our area there is a church that sincerely believes the passage in James 5 regarding calling the elders to pray for the sick is about physical illness and thus they are not to use any medical treatment at all. As a result they have had two children die of treatable causes. This practice of theirs has been going on for many years. They are as sincere in their beliefs as they could possibly be as the deaths of their children attest. Why have they not been "led into all truth"?I believe that the Holy Spirit is leading them to, and that they don't need anyone to teach them. Because if they want the truth as it pertains to a certain doctrine or teaching, the Holy Spirit will get them there.
I was raised in the Church of Christ, my wife has an Assembly of God background, one son and his family attend a Baptist church, the other a Covenant church, and last count I had seven Baptist pastors on my mom's side of the family, among several other relatives that are Church of Christ. We attend an independent Christian Church. I guess I'm a mongrel in search of truth.

Blessings, Homer
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
A Berean
- _Christopher
- Posts: 437
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:35 pm
- Location: Gladstone, Oregon
Hi Homer,
I'd like to just add a few thoughts here.
First, I believe as others do here that this passage, while directed toward the apostles, is also indirectly a promise to us as well (Acts 2:38-39). The same Spirit which guided the apostles, also guides every other regenerated believer. I think everyone has the capability available to them of discovering the truth on all issues God intended us to know.
I also believe as Chriscarani does that there is a degree that most (if not all) beleivers suppress the truth because of Satanic/demonic deception and our own commitments to theological systems. I think division in the body of Christ is one of Satan's chief objectives in hindering the work of God. I don't think that even the apostles were immune to this. Peter, apparently began falling into this trap with the Judaizers of his day and Paul had to publicly rebuke him for it (Gal 2). Also, we see Paul and Barnabas splitting up over a disagreement that obviously was not Spirit led (Acts 15).
As far as the trustworthiness of the apostles doctrine, I think it may be a combination of having sat under Jesus' teaching for over 3 years straight and also a supernatural inspiration that was specific to their calling as apostles (I'm thinking mostly of Paul here). Although they didn't always exhibit understanding of Jesus' teachings, they still had it 'hidden in their heart' for the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning to it in due season (kind of like the time released 'revelations' we seem to get when we read the bible). The fact that their doctrines do not contradict each other (as ours do) also attests to the fact that they were Spirit led in establishing them.
Most of us today know pressures to adhere to certain systems of theology and we would all do well to try and shed that tendency and allow the Spirit to guide us in all truth. This is the primary thing that originally attracted me to Steve's ministry because more than anyone else I know, he tries not to be committed to any views or systems, but only to truth. It's only with this commitment that the Spirit is able to lead us in all truth.
That's my take on it anyway. Thoughts?
I'd like to just add a few thoughts here.
First, I believe as others do here that this passage, while directed toward the apostles, is also indirectly a promise to us as well (Acts 2:38-39). The same Spirit which guided the apostles, also guides every other regenerated believer. I think everyone has the capability available to them of discovering the truth on all issues God intended us to know.
I also believe as Chriscarani does that there is a degree that most (if not all) beleivers suppress the truth because of Satanic/demonic deception and our own commitments to theological systems. I think division in the body of Christ is one of Satan's chief objectives in hindering the work of God. I don't think that even the apostles were immune to this. Peter, apparently began falling into this trap with the Judaizers of his day and Paul had to publicly rebuke him for it (Gal 2). Also, we see Paul and Barnabas splitting up over a disagreement that obviously was not Spirit led (Acts 15).
As far as the trustworthiness of the apostles doctrine, I think it may be a combination of having sat under Jesus' teaching for over 3 years straight and also a supernatural inspiration that was specific to their calling as apostles (I'm thinking mostly of Paul here). Although they didn't always exhibit understanding of Jesus' teachings, they still had it 'hidden in their heart' for the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning to it in due season (kind of like the time released 'revelations' we seem to get when we read the bible). The fact that their doctrines do not contradict each other (as ours do) also attests to the fact that they were Spirit led in establishing them.
Most of us today know pressures to adhere to certain systems of theology and we would all do well to try and shed that tendency and allow the Spirit to guide us in all truth. This is the primary thing that originally attracted me to Steve's ministry because more than anyone else I know, he tries not to be committed to any views or systems, but only to truth. It's only with this commitment that the Spirit is able to lead us in all truth.
That's my take on it anyway. Thoughts?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." John 8:31-32