God and Governments

[TK]

Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?” Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” (John 19:10-11)

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. (Rom 13:1-2)

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. (1 Pet 2:13-14)

I opened up a can of worms recently with some unbelievers- we were discussing the elections and i said something along the lines of (with the above verses in mind) that "I find some comfort in the fact that whoever gets elected is God's choice, for His purposes." probably a dumb thing to say.

One person said something to the effect of "So how do you explain Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and several thousand other despots?"

Another person said something like "The brits were the legitimate governmental authority. should we not have fought for independence?"

If this was discussed on the old forum, sorry about that. But how would you all respond to these questions? If God in fact DOES put into power those who He wishes, and we are suppsoed to be submissive, what about the Hitlers and Stalins? What about the War for Independence?

I am feeling a little stumped. Perhaps my brain is full from the preterism discussion, but I cannot think clearly on this issue.

thanks,

TK

[Allyn]

Hi TK,

History is the unfolding of the mystery. There were many many bad people in charge of countries and nations and we could wonder about them all concerning your question. Many things have turned out for the good and even though I dare not give any credit to any of these devils I can say that God has brought good out of the experiences.

[Paidion]

Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every authority instituted among men: whether to the king, as the supreme authority, or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. (1 Pet 2:13-14)

Richard Wurmbrand, who spent 14 years of torture and deprivation in a Communist prison in Romania, said that this verse describes a God-given "authority instituted among men." He emphasized that this verse states that such an authority was "sent by Him to punish those who do wrong and to reward those who do right." He said the Communists do exactly the opposite. They reward those who do wrong and punish those who do right. Thus he concluded that Communist governments were not instituted by God. He believed it was morally right to lie to the Communists to save his fellow disciples from being brought to prisons of torture.

[Jason]

TK, I believe the scriptures you cited are referring to God ordaining institutions of government in order that justice be executed on Earth. This does not mean God's endorsement is upon each individual leader, which is what your friends were pointing out.

Here in the States, we have a form of government that divides power among a number of groups and cabinets, which looks very bloated at times. This was done to make sure that if ever a Stalin or Hitler rose to power in this country, they would have limited power. I think it's a good, though imperfect, system and allows for checks and balances, assuring that no one individual would ever hold total power. I think this type of government is more or less God's ideal in out present age.

So I would answer your friends differently. I'd tell them I don't worry about the election as much as others simply because our government is set up to make dictatorship impossible. The House and Senate are there to provide checks and balances.

[TK]

thanks for the input, all of you.

JC- thanks for this statement:

I believe the scriptures you cited are referring to God ordaining institutions of government in order that justice be executed on Earth. This does not mean God's endorsement is upon each individual leader, which is what your friends were pointing out.

that is very helpful and is what i was having trouble formulating.

TK

[Theophilus]

I've heard it explained by Steve that the government is God's instrument for justice and the Church is God's instrument for mercy.

Having said that, if we live in a country that extends rights to its citizens like voting shouldn't we act as ambassadors to Christ and vote in a way that is God honoring? As citizens, we have a role in our government. However, our primary focus is the Kingdom of God and how His Kingdom can advance. To that end, we shouldn't be overly concerned with the kingdom of men.

Something that was brought up in one of Steve's radio programs was whether the advancement of the Kingdom of God is related to the form of civic government. It was brought up that even under non-democratic forms of government the Kingdom of God can advance.

Luke 16
8"The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light.