Sanctification after death (purgatory?)

[Guest]

I was listening to a podcast series from bible.org on the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism and the subject of purgatory obviously came up. I was a little surprised at how the Catholics have seemingly moderated or reformed their views of purgatory, though I still don't see Scriptural support for it. I am curious, though, about what appears to be their theological basis for it.

According to the podcast, it's not necessarily seen as a place of torment anymore and not necessarily in what we would call "hell," but it is seen as a place in heaven or some other indefinite spiritual realm where our sanctification can be completed whether through trials or washing or something else.

I've not thought much about sanctification after death, but here's the question:

1. Though we are sanctified more and more on earth through trials and tests, we are clearly not fully sanctified (though we are justified) upon death.
   
   Do we need to be fully sanctified to come into the presence of the Lord?
   
   If so, how is that assumed to happen after death?

[Guest]

It all goes back to the same issue. "WHEN is one justified." If you read the scriptures, it is clear(at least to me)that man is justified the moment he places his faith in the death, burial, and ressurection of Jesus. Such scriptures as:

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The Roman Catholics and certain other groups often substitute there own works and such for atonement, this could never work of course. Take this formula for example: Jesus + our works = Nothing Jesus + nothing = everything.

I may seem to be talking about something entirely different than what you posted, but I believe that our understanding of justification will clear up alot of misunderstanding. If purgatory was needed to sanctify us, then it is like saying "Jesus' sacrifice wasn't all that was needed." I am sure everyone here rejects that. Here is a final verse to ponder.
"1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

[Guest]

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. RSV

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. NASB

If there is no need for us to pursue actual holiness or sancitifation, that is, if it is sufficient to be made holy or sanctified only positionally by Jesus' sacrifice, as Brody's post seems to suggest, then why would the writer of Hebrews exhort us to strive for the kind of holiness without which no one will see the Lord? or as the NASB puts it, to pursue the kind of sanctification without which no one will see the Lord?

God is not interested in making us positionally holy so that we can get to heaven. Nowhere is it written that that is the purpose of Christ's death. Indeed Christ's death is needed for us to be holy, but we're talking here about actual holiness, not some kind of pretending covering so that God sees Christ's righteousness instead of our sin.

No, we won't see the Lord until we are actually holy. We must be going in the direction of holiness and Christ-likeness, in order to be justified now. Then Christ will personally put the finishing touches upon the sanctification process at our resurrection.

However what about those servants of Christ who deliberately continue in sin?

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27 RSV

It seems to me that the writer is stating that if we desciples (and he includes himself) go on sinning deliberately, we will have to be corrected by the same judgment and fury of fire in Gehenna that Christ's adversaries will face.

What did Jesus Himself say about it? He gave a parable about three classes of servants:

You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour." Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" Luke 12: 40-49

Jesus is obviously talking about the judgment in that great day when he returns. One class of servants will be put with the unfaithful. A second class will receive a severe beating, and a third class will receive a light beating. All of these will take place after the judgment ---- after our mortal life is over.

All of God's judgments are remedial.

And no one is going to be with the Lord who is unsanctified.

[Guest]

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. RSV

Hebrews 12:14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. NASB

If there is no need for us to pursue actual holiness or sancitifation, that is, if it is sufficient to be made holy or sanctified only positionally by Jesus' sacrifice, as Brody's post seems to suggest, then why would the writer of Hebrews exhort us to strive for the kind of holiness without which no one will see the Lord? or as the NASB puts it, to pursue the kind of sanctification without which no one will see the Lord?

God is not interested in making us positionally holy so that we can get to heaven. Nowhere is it written that that is the purpose of Christ's death. Indeed Christ's death is needed for us to be holy, but we're talking here about actual holiness, not some kind of pretending covering so that God sees Christ's righteousness instead of our sin.

No, we won't see the Lord until we are actually holy. We must be going in the direction of holiness and Christ-likeness, in order to be justified now. Then Christ will personally put the finishing touches upon the sanctification process at our resurrection.

However what about those servants of Christ who deliberately continue in sin?

For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. Hebrews 10:26,27 RSV

It seems to me that the writer is stating that if we desciples (and he includes himself) go on sinning deliberately, we will have to be corrected by the same judgment and fury of fire in Gehenna that Christ's adversaries will face.

What did Jesus Himself say about it? He gave a parable about three classes of servants:

You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour." Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful. And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating. But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Every one to whom much is given, of him will much be required; and of him to whom men commit much they will demand the more. I came to cast fire upon the earth; and would that it were already kindled!" Luke 12: 40-49

Jesus is obviously talking about the judgment in that great day when he returns. One class of servants will be put with the unfaithful. A second class will receive a severe beating, and a third class will receive a light beating. All of these will take place after the judgment ---- after our mortal life is over.

All of God's judgments are remedial.

And no one is going to be with the Lord who is unsanctified.

The text that you quoted can hardly be used to make your case Paidion. Hebrews 12:14 says nothing of the imputed righteousness Paul speaks of in Romans 4 and 5. You also didn't address the versus I spoke of in Galatians. If you are under the assumption that you can somehow work of the debt you have gained over the years through suffering, you are sadly mistaken. I would rather stand before God on the grounds of what Christ did "alone" for my sins, than what Christ did mingled with my works. I am not sugesting that the believer shouldn't perform good works, we were created "unto good works"(Eph 2). But never are we justified on the basis of these works, if so Christ died in vain.

[Guest]

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" Matthew 12:32

I still cannot find any Biblical warrant that justifies and supports purgatory. IMHO, each argument that is used in support of universalism can be shot down with ease.

Jesus is obviously talking about the judgment in that great day when he returns. One class of servants will be put with the unfaithful. A second class will receive a severe beating, and a third class will receive a light beating. All of these will take place after the judgment ---- after our mortal life is over.

The length of time in never mentioned. Are there degrees of punishment? Possibly. Even probably. But what's to say that this "lesser degree" of punishment will not go on and on, for ever? Notice that the parable never says the beating will end. It just says that the beating will be less severe. Further, why does this passage have to refer to non-believers? Or, why are you projecting this parable into everlasting realms?

[Guest]

It should also be pointed out that the Apostle Paul pointed out in clear terms that man is justified while alive if he is "In Christ".

Romans 5:1 says " Therefore "having been"(past tense)justified by faith, we have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ"

I don't know about you, but if I had to suffer punishment in purgatory to atone for my sins, I wouldn't have peace with God.

[Guest]

I don't know about you, but if I had to suffer punishment in purgatory to atone for my sins, I wouldn't have peace with God.

Not only that, but aren't we verging on works-salvation if we believe in Universalism? If Jesus got the job done (sanctification), why do we need to do the job ourselves?

Any thoughts??

[Guest]

I don't know about you, but if I had to suffer punishment in purgatory to atone for my sins, I wouldn't have peace with God.

Not only that, but aren't we verging on works-salvation if we believe in Universalism? If Jesus got the job done (sanctification), why do we need to do the job ourselves?

Any thoughts??

I think the argument boils down to this question, at what point are we justified before God? If it occurs after death and is subject to what we do, then salvation was merited by our works. No other way around it. If we are justified when we place our faith in Jesus, and live out our faith in obedience to his Lordship because we believe his word, then salvation was a gift that we recieved and lived out through the Holy Spirit.

Just my 2 cents ofcourse.

[Guest]

I think the argument boils down to this question, at what point are we justified before God? If it occurs after death and is subject to what we do, then salvation was merited by our works. No other way around it. If we are justified when we place our faith in Jesus, and live out our faith in obedience to his Lordship because we believe his word, then salvation was a gift that we recieved and lived out through the Holy Spirit.

Just my 2 cents ofcourse.

If Universalism is not works salvation, then what is the purpose? I see none. As I have said in previous posts, to take away Jesus' sufficiency is not eviscerate the very heart right out of the NT gospel.

IMHO, to believe in Universalism is to deny the sufficiency of Christ. Otherwise, pray tell, what purpose would purgatory be?

I might add that the Roman Catholic form of purgatory developed during the 7th and 8th centuries. It is largely a figment of the Roman Catholic dogma that unfortunately plagues so many folks in our day.

[Guest]

If you are under the assumption that you can somehow work of the debt you have gained over the years through suffering, you are sadly mistaken.

The statement quoted above is true. However, it doesn't relegate me to the status of being "sadly mistaken", since I am not under the stated assumption.

It always amazes me that proponents of substitutionary atonement are "under the assumption" that those who believe in the true gospel are "trying to work off their debt of sin", whether here in this life, or in a future life. However, having once believed in substitutionary atonement, I do understand that "assumption". It rests upon the idea that past sin is a debt which must be paid.

It may be wise to consider the words of that great disciple who lived what he taught, George MacDonald:

"Not for anythng he has committed do they threaten a man with the outer darkness. Not for any or all of his sins that are past shall a man be condemned; not for the worst of them needs he dread remaining unforgiven. The sin he dwells in, the sin he will not come out of, is the sole ruin of man. His present, his live sins --- those pervading his thoughts and ruling his conduct; the sins he keeps doing, and will not give up; the sins he is called to abandon, and clings to; the same sins which are the cause of his misery, though he may not know it --- these are they for which he is even now condemned."

I would rather stand before God on the grounds of what Christ did "alone" for my sins, than what Christ did mingled with my works.

The believer in true salvation (from sin) does NOT intend to "stand before God on the grounds of ... what Christ did mingled with his works."

Rather he stands before God as one who has been delivered from sin ... all made possible by the sacrifice of Christ. This is the reason Christ died, not to forgive our past sin, but to deliver us from our present sin.

1 Peter 2:24 He himself carried up our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness.