1John 3 "has neither seen Him nor known Him"?

Post by **_Ely** » Fri Apr 21, 2006 4:51 pm

Helo everybody, I'm new to these parts. I'm a Londoner, I'm nearly 30 and I've been saved for just under three years. I've recently come across thenarrowpath and have been devouring Steve's audio teachings which are excellent.

I have found the refutations of the Word Faith Movement and Calvnisim to be especially effective and edifying. However, as a Premillennialist (Post-Trib), I was less enamoured with the eschatology series

Anywho, reading through 1st John today and this passage stood out:

4Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5You know that he appeared to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
1 John 3 - ESV

This passage and especially verse 6 is often pointed to by Clavinists as a proof of the doctrine of "Perseverance of the Saints". They understand John to be saying that if a person continually sins, then they were never saved in the first place. This theory seems quite strong because the phrases "has either seen" and "known Him" are in the perfect tense, indicating a past action (or lackt thereof) with present results.

Any thoughts anyone? How can this be understood from a non-Calvinistic perspective?

Post by **_Paidion** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:39 am

I am amazed that anyone could find Calvinism is the passage you quoted, Ely. Indeed, from my own experience with convinced Calvinists, I would say that it is diametrically opposed to Calvinism. When I was a Calvinist as a young man, it was this passage that bugged me most. I wanted to boot it out of the Bible!

The Calvinists I know, say that, due to their fallen nature even "the elect" cannot help but continue sinning; they sin every single day. If it weren't for the fact that righteousness is "imputed" to them through the blood of Christ, they would all go to hell.

One of them told my wife that her sins were forgiven through Christ's finished work on the coross --- past, present, and future, and that she could murder someone tomorrow, and even if she should die without repenting, she'd still go to heaven.

Post by **_Ely** » Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:21 pm

I thought that Calvinists argue that if a person continues to sin impudently and deliberately, then they weren't saved in the first place? Hence, such a person "has neither seen" nor "known" God.

Post by **_Sean** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 12:20 am

The part of the text that you bolded could refer only to unbelievers. Once someone is saved, they will usually stop willful sinning and have a reformed life until they backslide. In this case it can't be said that they "keep on sinning" if they indeed stopped for awhile.

A breakdown of verse 6 could be:
"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning"

This refers to a believer

"no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him"

This refers to an unbeliever.

No reference is made in this verse to a person who once was a believer but is no more.

Does that make any sense?

Post by **_Ely** » Sun Apr 23, 2006 6:43 am

The part of the text that you bolded could refer only to unbelievers. Once someone is saved, they will usually stop willful sinning and have a reformed life until they backslide. In this case it can't be said that they "keep on sinning" if they indeed stopped for awhile.

A breakdown of verse 6 could be:
"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning"

This refers to a believer

"no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him"

This refers to an unbeliever.

No reference is made in this verse to a person who once was a believer but is no more.

Does that make any sense?

Ah, yes that makes sense. Thanks Sean.

but then could a Calvinist actually agree with this and then point to the following verses as proof that it is actually immpossible for someone who has trully been born of God to contninue sinning:

9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Any thoughts?

Post by **_Sean** » Mon Apr 24, 2006 3:31 am

Ely wrote:
Ah, yes that makes sense. Thanks Sean.

but then could a Calvinist actually agree with this and then point to the following verses as proof that it is actually immpossible for someone who has trully been born of God to contninue sinning:

9No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Any thoughts?

It depends on where you want to go with this. On the one hand I could quote "If we claim we are without sin we lie". I also think Paidion made some good points on this above.

On the other hand I could just say that no one born of God keeps on willfully sinning. However, one can still fail to remian in Christ by failing in a temptation and giving up on Christ. Like the seed that grew up but was later choked out because it was among thorns (the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth).

In other words, I think its reading way too much into this passage to say that no one can fall away. I don't think that's what John is writing about. I think the point John is trying to make is how to tell a true believer from someone who is professing falsely. So trying to read eternal security into this/these passages is not valid. In my opinion.

Post by **_AARONDISNEY** » Wed May 17, 2006 9:36 am

Hi guys,
I do absolutely believe a person can know the Lord genuinely and then fall away. But I don't belive that at each point that we fall short we have lost our salvation. It seems that if we keep on sinning and "yield our members servants to sin" then we are the servants of sin and shall not share in the life that Christ offers.

Having said that, I think it is important to note that we will mess up, but then it is our duty to confess it to the Lord and let Him clease us from the guilt of it and from the power of it (1 John 1:9)

I was reading the other day, about Jesus washing his disciples' feet and the verse that leaped off the page at me was this one..(bolded)

John 13:6-11
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
(KJV)

When we have been washed by the blood of the Lamb we are every whit clean, but as we walk through the world we're gonna get some mud on our feet. What we then do is go to the Lord and have him "wash our feet".
We are clean but we get some world junk on us sometimes (even of our own doing) but if we fail to allow Him to wash our feet we will become once again every whit filthy and be servants of the world and not servants of our Lord.