This is an interesting one to raise and one I haven't fully considered in connection with this topic. So, I will consider it more fully.Homer wrote: ↑Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:44 pmDarin wrote:
I understand your argument regarding certain things being derivative but that argument only goes so far. Consider the following:This is hard for moderns, but if a king or pharaoh had a son and he gave the signet ring to him and sent him into the land, people would rightly bow down and pay honor to that prince - but, it was derivative, and the real object was the authority of the pharoah/king that was being worshipped. If someone explicitly were to say the prince was a part of a ruling "pair" and not recognize this as derivative, that person likely would be put to death (and likely the prince for encouraging or permitting it). So, this is shaky ground, I think.
Numbers 21:4-9
4. Then they set out from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the people became impatient because of the journey. 5. So the people spoke against God (Elohim) and Moses: “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we are disgusted with this miserable food.” 6. Then the Lord (YHWH) sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7. So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord (YHWH) and against you; intercede with the Lord (YHWH), that He will remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8. Then the Lord (YHWH) said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.” 9. So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit someone, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.
In Numbers we are informed That Jehovah was offended. In 1 Corinthians we are informed by Paul it was Christ:
1 Corinthians 10:9
New American Standard Bible
9. Nor are we to put the Lord (Christos) to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.
How is this to be explained? In the OT story God is offended. Paul says the offense was against Christ. He had just informed the Corinthians that Christ was the "rock" that followed the Israelites in the desert. Easily explained by the Trinitarian; I don't see how the Unitarian can explain it.
Of course all analogies fall short, but the typification of Christ between Joseph and Pharoah is also apropros on this perspective. I don't see how the 1 Corinthians/Numbers example exemplify a shortcoming of the discussion of derivative authority. But, in any event, it is an interesting separate argument in support of Trinitarianism. This may deserve its own thread, so I'm starting a new topic for this discussion and will move this post there once created.
On the wilderness wanderings, I know that Dwight doesn't like secondary references, but they are useful to show examples of how people have thought through issues like this and can be useful to dialogue and consideration of alternative positions. Yes, as Dwight says, their usefulness depends on them following or being true to scripture. That is just as true as our own exchanges and ideas. But, since you don't see how someone might explain this 1 Cor passage, I provide one commentator's thoughts for your consideration.
In short, it is well agreed that the many references to Christ in the Israel wanderings do not suggest identity with Christ but are types of Christ and reveal spiritual truths about the coming Messiah that is fulfilled in Christ. To my mind, it is just as ill-advised to use literal interpretations here in support of dogmas as this is what leads to silly futuristic theories about Revelation leading to Dispensationalism.
Here is at least one person's discourse on the 1 Corinthians passage. It is discussing 10:4, but that was the presumption for the discussion of 10:9, so I thought it might be a good place to start. Again (for Dwight), I do not present this as authoritative, but as helpful to share a perspective that perhaps hadn't been considered and give us a convenient basis for further discussion.
https://dividingword.wordpress.com/2013 ... hians-104/
1 Cor. 10:4 states,
They drank of that spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ.
This picture is said to be the rock that Moses struck. You may click on that rock to refer to the webpage.
The Trinitarian mind-set would have us believe Paul was trying to tell us Christ literally existed in the time of the wanderings in the wilderness, but this is not what Paul said or was trying to convey to us.
We know that the Messiah did not literally exist as a rock, nor follow the Israelites all around in the wilderness. Nowhere in the Hebrew Testament does it mention the Messiah being with the Israelites in the wilderness. And if he had been, he certainly would not have been “following” them. The Hebrew Testament does not say the LORD “followed” the Israelites as Paul spoke of the rock that followed them; scriptures states that the LORD “went before them,” not following them. (Ex. 13:21,22) The context, however, in 1 Cor. 10:4 shows that Paul is speaking of the things as types.
There are many passages that the Messiah was the hope of Israel, and people who looked forward to him were strengthened by their anticipation of their coming Messiah.
Paul was using a “typology” with reference to Christ, who is the Messiah, accompanying Christians in their lives. We as children of God are passing through this world and wilderness as pilgrims. Our experience is being read back into the experiences of the Israelites. Twice Paul tells us he is speaking “typically” in verses 6 and 11. Here is what we can learn as one brother has well stated:
Passing through the red sea/cloud = Christian baptism.
The miraculous manna = Continuous supply of spiritual food.
Striking the rock (tsur) at Rephidim= Christ in the flesh smitten for sins of man.
The gushing out of water = The giving of holy spirit.
Striking the rock (sela) at Kadesh= Christ our High Priest not to be smitten twice but only to be addressed. Yet “they impale the Son of God afresh”
Water came out abundantly = The supplying of holy spirit.
The 2 rock incidents were at each end of the wanderings (Exodus 17 and Numbers 20).
Paul designates the “rock” that Moses struck as a “type,” of Jesus. Paul does not say that Christ is [present tense] that rock as assumed by many.
The spiritual “rock” was Christ, that is, that rock that the LORD had provided by means of his spirit is a type of Jesus. There is nothing in this that means that Jesus “was” LORD as in Yahweh. The food — the manna — and drink — the water — provided by the LORD is a type of the food and drink provided through Jesus. Jesus himself tells us this. (John 6:48-58) There is nothing in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 that proves that Jesus is LORD (Yahweh) who provided the rock, and the manna, and the drink through the rock.
Paul was speaking figuratively. He draws an illustration of how the literal “rock,” that the Israelites literally drank from, spiritually represents Jesus (1 Cor. 10: 6-11). Christ is our nourishment and our strength (John 6:35; Phil 4:13). Paul is giving an example by referring them back to the nation of Israel for the benefit of the Christian (v.6).
So Paul is in no way saying that Christ literally existed as a rock or that he existed in the time of the wilderness wanderings of the Israelites.