Born Again or Begotten Again?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Homer
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Homer » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:56 pm

Hi Paidion,

This passage would not seem to fit into your view:

Titus 3:3-5 (NASB)
3. For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another. 4. But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5. He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration ( Grk #3824, paliggenesia) and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


You must have an alternate understanding of palliggenesia (palin (again), genesis (birth). Genesis was used in two Gospels in reference to Herod's birthday.

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:23 pm

Hi Homer,
Actually it does support my view. The word γενναω (gennaō)="beget" is the verbal form and γενεσις (genesis)="begetting" is the nominal (noun) form of the same word. The English word "generate" is derived from this word. The nominal form is usually translated as "regeneration." As I understand it, a person is physically generated in his mother's womb when the sperm unites with the egg. That is the beginning of life. But a person must be generated again to begin a truly spiritual life. This occurs when he submits himself to the authority of the Saviour. I hope to provide more detail in a future post.

But both the verbal and the nominal form differs a great deal from the word τικτω (τικτō)= "give birth", even though many translators so render them.

Actually the word γενεσις (genesis) is not translated as "birth" but as "genealogy" It is the word γενεσια (genesia) that is translated as "birthday" (as in Herod's birthday) But I am not sure that this is a correct translation. How do we know that it wasn't Herod's begetting or date of conception that was celebrated? Even in our day, there are some cultures who celebrate one's conception. Also the Catholic Church celebrates Mary's conception. It is called "The Feast of the Immaculate Conception."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Homer » Sat Nov 16, 2019 2:27 pm

Hi Paidion,

I do not think there is any doubt that gennao in its various uses means begotten or born. But in either case it seems we can not take it literally in reference to our becoming a Christian. Paul, in numerous places, references our "adoption as sons". How can this be if we are literally "begotten" again? IMO you are not on solid ground in your argument about when we are begotten again and born again. The important thing is we become God's children in Christ.

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:54 pm

"Adoption as sons" is a poor translation of "υιοθεσια" (huiothesia). The word ought to be translated as the "placing as sons."
In the Hebrew culture, a person who was already a son was placed as a son when he became mature, at which point he was able to take charge of the inheritance that was his by way of sonship. The term used was being "placed" as a son.

It appears that we will not reach this full maturity until our resurrection:

Romans 8:23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for placing as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

As you know, I have suggested that the beginning of our Christian life is our begetting, our life in Christ from then until its end is our "time in the womb", and our resurrection is our birth. And so in Rom 8:23, we "groan inwardly" while we are still in our present live "in the womb" eagerly awaiting our "placing as sons," the redemption of our bodies—our resurrection. Then we will receive our inheritance.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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backwoodsman
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by backwoodsman » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:13 am

Paidion wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:54 pm
"Adoption as sons" is a poor translation of "υιοθεσια" (huiothesia). The word ought to be translated as the "placing as sons."
Could you please provide your source for this? I checked several Greek references (Robertson, Nicoll, Alford, and Zodhiates), and none support it; all say 'adoption' is correct. Zodhiates says one of its root words means 'to place,' but his detailed explanation is all about 'adoption,' and points out that in no case is it equivalent to sonship. Unless your source is more authoritative than those guys, I suspect we may have another example of your creative but unsubstantiated Greek interpretations.

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:22 pm

My main "source" is my knowledge of Greek. You, yourself stated that Zodhiates says one of the root words of "huiothesia" means 'to place.' That is correct. The other root word is "son." Hence, "placing of sons."

huios (son)
tithāmi (to place)

huiothesia (the placing of sons)

The great mystery is, "Where do all those Bible translations find the word "adoption" in "huiothesia"?
However, there are at least three of them who do not have "the spirit of adoption" in Romans 8:15.
The NIV and the Diaglot have "the spirit of sonship" and the BBE (Bible in Basic English) has "the spirit of sons."

Here is an article I just discovered tonight that agrees with my stance that "adoption of sons" is a poor translation, and that mentions "the placing of sons" as a better one.

https://www.wordofhisgrace.org/wp/the-s ... /#more-590
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:04 pm

Hi Paidion,

Read the article at the link you posted. The author is Reformed or Calvinist, if you will, and his idea about being "placed as a son" would seem to dovetail with a Calvinist idea of being elected as a son and then at conversion being placed as a son:
The son was always the son (elect?) from his birth, but this was the recognition that he was now ready to take his rightful place as heir.
His claim appears to be an unsupported assertion (no scholarly support cited). I second what Backwoodsman requested - some authoritative evidence that supports the claim that in Paul's day he wasn't speaking of adoption but rather a "son" being acknowledged (placed) as a son when he matured.

Kittle, Vol. VIII, p. 397-399, comments that "The word (huiothesia ) is attested only from the 2nd cent, B.C. and means "adoption as a child". Kittle goes on to say "...the main point...in what follows (Romans 9) is that sonship be understood not as an assured sonship by natural descent or merit but as a sonship always dependent on God's free grace and received in faith."

Kittle agrees that the word refers to "placing in sonship towards God". He also would say that it means the same thing as adoption. However the Greek word is translated (adopted or placed as a son) is irrelevant; a distinction without a difference.

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Paidion
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Re: Born Again or Begotten Again?

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:27 pm

Yes, there are various understanding of the phrase "placing as sons"—the Calvinist concept, the "adoption" idea, and my own position.

The only reason I brought up the article was to show that there are others besides myself, who recognize the word "huiothesia" as meaning "the placing of sons."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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