YouTube Videos Christology

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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Paidion
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Re: YouTube Videos Christology

Post by Paidion » Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:43 pm

Most Unitarians would agree with the first paragraph but many would disagree that John 8:58 is meant to imply pre-existence.
What do they think it meant?
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darinhouston
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Re: YouTube Videos Christology

Post by darinhouston » Mon Aug 05, 2019 12:14 am

Paidion wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:43 pm
Most Unitarians would agree with the first paragraph but many would disagree that John 8:58 is meant to imply pre-existence.
What do they think it meant?
I think most would say that He pre-existed in the mind of God — that He existed in God's foreknowledge -- that it was part of God’s plan that Jesus would be the Messiah. Similarly, that when Abraham saw the day of Christ, it was a figurative or prophetic vision. Others might say that "before" isn't temporal, but positional and that Jesus is merely saying He is the man to look at to see God and that He was greater than Abraham. Most I think would negate the supposed reference to Exodus since the terms aren't the same except in the English translations. "I will be what I will be" (a form of "to be") in Exodus being quite different from the simple "I am he" type of usage in John, therefore the similarities being artificial.

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Paidion
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Re: YouTube Videos Christology

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:54 pm

Jesus' statement was His answer to the question the Jews asked Him:

57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


It seems to me that Jesus' response indicated that He existed prior to Abraham. If He had meant only that He pre-existed in the mind of God, or that He was greater than Abraham, how would that have answered the question?

Think about it.
Question: "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Answer: "I existed in the mind of God."

Question: "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Answer: I am greater than Abraham.

I cannot see that either one of these statements answers their question. But "Before Abraham existed, I existed" clearly does.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: YouTube Videos Christology

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:42 am

Paidion wrote:
Mon Aug 05, 2019 6:54 pm
Jesus' statement was His answer to the question the Jews asked Him:

57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"

58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."


It seems to me that Jesus' response indicated that He existed prior to Abraham. If He had meant only that He pre-existed in the mind of God, or that He was greater than Abraham, how would that have answered the question?

Think about it.
Question: "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Answer: "I existed in the mind of God."

Question: "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Answer: I am greater than Abraham.

I cannot see that either one of these statements answers their question. But "Before Abraham existed, I existed" clearly does.
you missed the previous verse which is paramount.

56-Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see MY day. He saw it and was glad.”

this is what Jesus is referring to when he says- I am he.- ego eimi is used in clear regards to the messiah in at least two places in John that come to mind- Jesus with the woman at the well and Jesus before Pilate.

So the promised seed is in reference, the messianic line that through Abraham the whole world would be blessed. Abraham rejoiced and was glad in faith believing God's promised fulfillment would be established.

Also in a few earlier verses in John 8 Jesus clearly distinguishes himself from the Father- vs 54 and then he supposedly says in four verses later that he is actually the 'i am' of Ex. 3?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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