Entire Sanctification

[Guest]

I would like to hear some various opinions and understandings on this Weslayan doctrine of entire sanctification. I'm especially interested in hearing from Mattrose (Wesleyan minister) but solicit other opinions as well.

I think I understand what the doctrine is, but what I'm having a difficult time understanding is when exactly this takes place and how common is it according to the Wesleyan.

I've begun attending a church that has Wesleyan roots and has this as a part of their doctrinal statement, but nobody, including the lead pastor seems to really teach it. In fact, he seems to believe and teach the opposite. Also, I haven't seen any hint that anyone there believes they are entirely sanctified.

So maybe I misunderstand what exactly it is.

[Guest]

Hey Christopher

It's pretty hard to discuss the wesleyan view of sanctification b/c pretty much every wesleyan minister i know talks about it in a slightly different manner. On top of that, Wesley himself seemed to switch positions throughout his life.

You asked 2 questions

WHEN DOES IT TAKE PLACE
The traditional 'wesleyan' answer to this question is that it is a 2nd work of grace, subsequent to justification. It is a crisis event.

HOW COMMON IS IT
Really difficult to answer because everyone defines it differently


HERE'S MY EXPERIENCE WITH THE DOCTRINE

I grew up in a wesleyan church and rarely if ever heard the term 'entire sanctification'. I was, however, emphasized that we should live holy lives in response to God's great love.

I went to the only strictly 'Bible' college of the Wesleyan Denomination and entire sanctification was a big debatable doctrine. It was discussed at length in a class called 'doctrine of holiness'. My teacher explained it this way:

when we convert, we cease willful sinning (in general, we may slip up as an exception to the rule), but at entire sanctification our 'bent toward sinning' is actually changed into a bent toward righteousness. Love becomes our motive in all things (again, though, this doesn't mean we won't have momentary lapses). Very few wesleyans believe/teach that we can reach a 'perfect' state with no more room for growth. Entire sanctification, then, is not the end goal, but an experience that catapults a person toward greater Christlikeness. The experience allows us to 'multiply' our steps toward holiness instead of take them 1 by 1

Okay, then I graduated college (honestly, still fuzzy on the issue/doctrine). In my denomination prospective pastors meet with a district board as part of the ordination process and so each year I met with them. Prior to these meetings I had to answer a question on a form which read "are you entirely sanctified?" And a 'YES' was expected. So that is a partial answer to your 2nd question, all wesleyan ministers are expected to be entirely sanctified.

Obviously I had questions about this and so I asked at my meeting and the assistant district superintendant answered me this way (and i have stuck with his definition ever since). He said "we just want to know if you are entirely consecrated to God. Are you holding anything back from Him? Have you given Him all of yourself to work with?" He stressed that my part is to be ENTIRELY CONSECRATED and God will do His part however He wants.

With that definition, I was able to answer 'yes' to the question on the form b/c they had explained what they wanted to know by asking it. I am now ordained and have been teaching in a wesleyan church for 3 years and have used the term 'entire sanctification' maybe once per year.

Now my personal thoughts.....

If by 'entire sanctification' the wesleyan leadership means 'entirely devoted to God' then ALL Christians should experience this. That's just basic discipleship, right?

Then again, I can see in my own life how it came to be seen as a seperate act. I was 'saved' in sunday school at 8 years old but didn't become a serious Christian until 17. I remember one lady in our church saying I got 'entirely sanctified' at 17. I personally can't decide if I got 'sanctified' or REALLY 'saved'!!! I think I heard Steve mention a somwhat similar experience.

I think many people become Christians and then, sometimes at a later date, really grasp the message of the Christ and devote themselves to Him in a fresh manner. Modern day wesleyans that still use the term call that later experience 'entire sanctification'

Holiness becomes the rule and not the exception, not just in deed, but in thought as well. Motives are pure.

[Guest]

Thanks Matt.

With that definition, I would agree with you that entire sanctification is simply Jesus' definition of a true disciple, being totally committed to His Lordship.

I see your point about those Christians who have not yet discovered that truth. I would have a hard time saying that you or Steve were not true Christians when you were saved at a young age. Many people take their cues from other Christians rather than the bible so they may not know right away what Jesus requires.

I would say however, that once someone discovers what Jesus' definition of a disciple is, choosing to heed that is merely doing what you already want to do...obey your King. I can't say that I would necessarily agree that that is a 2nd work of grace from the Holy Spirit. To me, it seems that the will to obey Jesus it's just a product of the first work...regeneration.

I appreciate your taking the time to clarify this for me. Thanks.

Lord bless.

[Guest]

Hey Chris,

After sleeping on it I thought of an illustration from my life

As a kid I had a very bad temper. I was saved at an early age which made me feel bad and confess my sin when I lost my temper. But my first instinct when someone made me mad was still rage. But at 17, when I fully consecrated myself, God took away that bad temper so that my first instinct when someone wronged me was thoughtfulness and a desire for peace. I cannot deny that this was a crisis event. One week I had a bad temper. The next week it was no longer part of my nature.

Not every sinful area was dealt with in that manner, but I believe God used the issue of my temper to show me that I had had an important day in my walk with Him.

I actually agree with you that this is simply a product of the 1st work of grace.

[Guest]

Mattrose,

What is described as a 2nd work of grace is something that I have encountered and continue to encounter as another area of my life is brought under the Lordship of Christ.

I wish it were one occurence where all areas of my life were fully submitted to him, but God seems to deal with me a piece at a time. I have committed my will to submit to Christ, but often, the Holy Spirit reveals a gap in reality regarding the way I live or believe. Then He begins to work on it and I begin to acquiesce. Hopefully, one day, there is a deliverance from it and a freedom to submit to Christ as it should be. Many of these areas in my life are currently "under construction"

I hope this makes sense.

[Guest]

Yes it does

I have never met a Wesleyan that denies that 'sanctification' occurs both before and after the supposed 'crisis event'. I've never been taught or told that we reach a point where we have 'arrived'

In other words, in word and practice, the wesleyan church agrees with you (as do i) that God works on us bit by bit. The crisis event may simply refer to the biggest such episode or the 1st such episode in one's quest for holiness.

[Guest]

So, it seems to me that the doctrine of "entire sanctification" is really just a label that is placed on what most Christians already believe, that we are a work in progress and that our sanctification isn't completed until we die.

Is that correct? Or are there various camps?

If that is so, it seems to be a rather misleading label.

[Guest]

Just my "two cents". When I became a Christian (again) about 25 years ago after feeding swine for over 20 years (OK, I'm slow), I was very concerned over what would happen with my use of foul language, which was very common in my work environment, and among my friends. I was afraid that I would blurt out something awful and be terribly embarrassed among my new Christian acquaintances. It has never happened; God took it away from me with with seemingly no effort on my part. Other things have not been so easy. I don't know what you would call this.

[Guest]

I would just like to say amen to the posts above.

I realize this is another "sticky" subject, and there are Godly folks on both sides of the issue.

Here is how I view it:

If you can be entirely sanctified in this life and you have "arrived" how can you "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus."?

If you "arrive" where is this "pressing toward the mark" that Paul was talking about?

Folks that advocate entire sanctifaction often go to 1 John where it talks about if you sin, you aren't of God. Pertaining to this subject, this is something I had written in another post:

- - - - - - - -

"there is none righteous no not one"

Well, actually that is a true statement.

"there is none righteous no not one" means that, yes, without Christ and before our standing with God, we are not righteous.

But that's not to say we don't do anything righteous. It's just that, before God, our righteous works done apart from Christ are filthy rags.

Abraham's faith was accounted to righteousness because he was relying on God, not himself.

Do you see the difference?

It's just like the verse in 1 John you mentioned.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

and yet later on he says:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"

well, what do we make of that?

I think it means, that, yes, before our standing with God we do not commit sin because Christ cleanses us.

But in the flesh, we do indeed sin. We can’t be perfect in our own flesh.

Do you see the difference?

[Guest]

I was very concerned over what would happen with my use of foul language, which was very common in my work environment, and among my friends. I was afraid that I would blurt out something awful and be terribly embarrassed among my new Christian acquaintances. It has never happened; God took it away from me with with seemingly no effort on my part. Other things have not been so easy. I don't know what you would call this.

I would call it the Work of the Holy Spirit. It's amazing, isn't it?