Heb 8:7-13

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Post by _Father_of_five » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:11 pm

Here is a partial quote from Steve Gregg from the other thread.
Steve Gregg wrote:5. This [Universalism] was believed by many in the early church. Of the six main Christian schools known to exist in the first four centuries, four taught universalism (Alexandria, Edessa, Antioch and Caesarea); one taught annihilationism (Ephesus); and one taught eternal torment (Rome).
This is one of the reasons why I first gave the idea of Universalism a chance, and have been studying it for about 10 months now. It seems to me that those who lived in the first centuries of the church may have a better understanding than many today. Notice that only 1 of 6 taught "eternal torment."

I do realize that being in the majority did not necessarily make it correct then, and neither does it today.

Todd
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:28 pm

Steve Gregg wrote:
5. This [Universalism] was believed by many in the early church. Of the six main Christian schools known to exist in the first four centuries, four taught universalism (Alexandria, Edessa, Antioch and Caesarea); one taught annihilationism (Ephesus); and one taught eternal torment (Rome).


Rome taught eternal torment, what a surprise since they have so much pagan influence anyway at least they are consistent. It seems the beast still has influence. Hell itself is a pagan word which the KJV picked up from the RCC but the Lake of Fire is real but not likely a torture chamber.

Btw Justin Martyr and Josephus used "aionios" to mean a finite period of time but i'm sure Paidion can speak for himself.
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Post by _Paidion » Sun Mar 26, 2006 9:16 pm

Homer, as Steve Gregg has so aptly pointed out it doesn't matter how many experts agree on a matter. If the matter is false, the agreement of many or all of the experts don't make it true.

Have you considered at all the points made in my last post?

How could Philemon have received back his slave eternally? If that's what the word means, then he would have had to do so.

How can you be corrected eternally? If it's eternal, then it's not correction. But the word definitely means "correction" and NOT "punishment" (unless "punishment" is considered to be remedial).

Have you considered the ramifications of the view that "aionios" means "eternal" and "aion" means "eternity"?

See whether you can make sense of the following scriptures where "aion" has been "translated" as "eternity":

Matthew 12:32 And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this eternity or in the eternity to come.
Matthew 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the close of the eternity, and the reapers are angels.
Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the eternity?"
1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this eternity? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:6 Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this eternity or of the rulers of this eternity, who are doomed to pass away.
1 Corinthians 2:8 None of the rulers of this eternity understood this; for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. If any one among you thinks that he is wise in this eternity, let him become a fool that he may become wise.

Now here's a doozer!

Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil eternity, according to the will of our God and Father.
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Post by _Homer » Sun Mar 26, 2006 11:56 pm

Paidion,

Yes I considered your points; I'm wondering if you read my last post. I must give you credit; you waged a mighty battle against a straw man in your reply.

How did you not notice that I listed both age and eternal (or eternity) as meanings of aion? You are insisting that aion means age so aionios cannot mean eternal. I suppose none of the dictionaries or lexicons cited can be trusted. Why would we use any of them?

You continue to insist that Kolasis means only correction. All the dictionaries and lexicons I have list punishment or correction as possible meanings. The word is only used twice in the NT, once in Matthew 25:46 and again in 1 John 4:18 where it makes no sense translated correction.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:50 am

How did you not notice that I listed both age and eternal (or eternity) as meanings of aion? You are insisting that aion means age so aionios cannot mean eternal. I suppose none of the dictionaries or lexicons cited can be trusted. Why would we use any of them?


The straw man is Plato because he invented the word "aionios" because before he coined it nobody used it. Plato also used the word "aion" 8 times as age. He first used "aionios" as "aionion intoxication" where in "Phaedon" he says "souls quitting this world , repair to the infernal regions and return after that to live in this world.""Aion" is used often in the greek classics and always meant age. "Aion" always means age in the bible and is a noun therefore if we take a plural of a finite time period it can mean anything. It can mean 2 aions or 3 aions or a million aions.
Do you think Satan is the eternal God since in 2 Cor 4.4 he is called the God of this aion?

In Rotherhams bible "aionios" means age abiding.
In Youngs Literal Translation "aionios" means "ages of the ages."
In the Concordant Literal Translation "aionios" means "ages upon ages."
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:26 am

One of the definitions of sin is "missing the mark" even unintentially. As Paidion said in another post less then 1% of the world will become disciples of Christ in this life. Yet Jesus accepted the task to be the "savior of the world" and "saving us from our sins"which was the task given to him by God the Father. And when Jesus walked the earth he actually made it difficult to follow him so most people dropped away.
Therefore if his task , which he accepted from Yahweh was to be the "savior of the world" and so few are really saved in this life did'nt he miss the mark if this is the only day or age of salvation?
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Post by _loaves » Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:41 am

Paidion wrote: Now here's a doozer!

Galatians 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil eternity, according to the will of our God and Father.
“Doozer” must be Canadian speak. Paidion please define the term for us in the U.S.

This is Barnes’ commentary on Galatians 1:4, specifically the phrase “this present evil world” (KJV).

- - - -

<b>This present evil world</b> - See Joh_17:15-16. Locke supposes, that by this phrase is intended the Jewish institutions, or the Mosaical age, in contradistinction from the age of the Messiah. Bloomfield supposes, that it means “the present state of being, this life, filled as it is with calamity, sin, and sorrow; or, rather, the sin itself, and the misery consequent upon it.” Rosenmuller understands by it, “the men of this age, Jews, who reject the Messiah; and pagans, who are devoted to idolatry and crime.” The word rendered “world” (a???`? aio¯n), means properly “age,” an indefinitely long period of time; then eternity, forever. It then comes to mean the world, either present or future; and then the present world, as it is, with its cares, temptations, and desires; the idea of evil, physical and moral, being everywhere implied - Robinson, Lexicon; Mat_13:22; Luk_16:8; Luk_20:34; Rom_12:2. Here it means the world as it is, without religion, a world of bad passions, false opinions, corrupt desires; a world full of ambition, and of the love of pleasure, and of gold; a world where God is not loved or obeyed; a world where people are regardless of right, and truth, and duty; where they live for themselves, and not for God; in short, that great community, which in the Scriptures is called the world, in contradistinction from the kingdom of God. That world, that evil world, is fall of sin; and the object of the Redeemer was to “deliver” us from that; that is, to effect a separation between his followers and that. It follows, therefore, that his followers constitute a unique community, not governed by the prevailing maxims, or influenced by the special feelings of the people of this world. And it follows, also, that if there is not in fact such a separation, then the purpose of the Redeemer’s death, in regard to us, has not been effected, and we are still a part of that great and ungodly community, the world.

- - - -

This “eternity” implies a finite length of time purely because it has a beginning point. It simply goes on and on because God goes on and on.
Steve7150 wrote: One of the definitions of sin is "missing the mark" even unintentially. As Paidion said in another post less then 1% of the world will become disciples of Christ in this life. Yet Jesus accepted the task to be the "savior of the world" and "saving us from our sins"which was the task given to him by God the Father. And when Jesus walked the earth he actually made it difficult to follow him so most people dropped away.

Therefore if his task , which he accepted from Yahweh was to be the "savior of the world" and so few are really saved in this life did'nt he miss the mark if this is the only day or age of salvation?
That logic is faulty is several areas.

1 – Let’s have God define sin for us, shall we? “for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” – Romans 14:23; “Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.” – James 4:17. So, if someone knows to do something that is good (Remember the Law is on our hearts), and doesn’t do it, it is sin. And whatever is not of God is sin.

2 – Jesus made it possible for everyone to be saved. But He never says everyone will. Jesus lays down many conditions in order to be His disciple. Jesus said that the servant of sin shall not abide in the house forever. John 8:35. In addition, those who reject the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this world or the world to come.

3 – Steve7150, please explain the following verse from your perspective: “whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, <u>it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come</u>” – John 12:32
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:06 pm

3 – Steve7150, please explain the following verse from your perspective: “whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come” – John 12:32

Well i don't think that's John 12.32 but at any rate it may be indicating some will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come. I'm not a universalist so if some are not saved so be it. I think this verse may have been referring to the Pharisees who saw Jesus's miracles but accused him of doing it through Satan.
The word "all" is used numerous times in the NT but i don't have any difficulty interpreting it as great majority.
For example Isaiah said "there is none righteous no not one" but Abraham was credited with righteousness so literalism i think is not the main genre of the bible.
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Post by _loaves » Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:19 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:For example Isaiah said "there is none righteous no not one" but Abraham was credited with righteousness so literalism i think is not the main genre of the bible.
Well, actually that is a true statement.

"there is none righteous no not one" means that, yes, without Christ and before our standing with God, we are not righteous.

But that's not to say we don't do anything righteous. It's just that, before God, our righteous works done apart from Christ are filthy rags.

Abraham's faith was accounted to righteousness because he was relying on God, not himself.

Do you see the difference?

It's just like the verse in 1 John you mentioned.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us"

and yet later on he says:

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin"

well, what do we make of that?

I think it means, that, yes, before our standing with God we do not commit sin because Christ cleanses us.

But in the flesh, we do indeed sin. We can’t be perfect in our own flesh.

Do you see the difference?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:24 pm

"there is none righteous no not one" means that, yes, without Christ and before our standing with God, we are not righteous.

But that's not to say we don't do anything righteous. It's just that, before God, our righteous works done apart from Christ are filthy rags.

Abraham's faith was accounted to righteousness because he was relying on God, not himself.

Do you see the difference?



Yes i do and that a good point Loaves and re the 1 John verse i have to look back and see where we left off with that as soon as i can. See ya.
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