Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

The Rich Man and Lazarus is not about hell it is about the jews looking to Father Abraham for salvation. "They had Moses and the Prophets" ,who had Moses and the prophets? Who looked to Father Abraham? Who would'nt believe even if one were raised from the dead? Who?

One thing that has amazed me in this thread is how many passages that don't have anything to do with what happends in "hell" are used to try and prove repentance and or salvation after death.

Yet in Luke 16, it clearly says the rich man dies and goes to Hades "Hell".

Steve, you say it's not about "hell". Hell is just a KJV term for Hades, Gehenna and Sheol, etc.

Luke 16 is clearly about this subject:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

We learn that it's a place people go after death, some go to torment and some rest, the one in torment asked for mercy and got none. The one who was greedy and selfish did not heed Abraham, Moses or the law or would not have neglected the poor.

It goes on to say "a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

So none who are in torment may come out of it, nor was there any mercy to be found even when asked for it.

If Jesus didn't mean any of this then He's making a terrible and non-sensical point, especially if the reality was that people can cross from one side to the other buy repentace.

I'll just have to take Jesus at His word. If really meant the opposite of what He said, then on the day of judgement I expect to hear "are you still without understanding"?

[Guest]

Sean.

It's seems clear to me that you are not open to considering alternate interpretations of what you have decided is a passage on the final state.

There are some. They actually have been posted on this forum.

Isn't it interesting that in the passage that the rich man's brothers are still alive on earth? Sounds to me like this story (parable?) is pre-resurrection, and therefore pre-judgement and before anyone has been sent to hell.

Do you believe that Jesus was teaching that unbelievers are tormented before they are resurrected and judged, then stand before God at the judgement, to be sent back to eternal torment?

Mike

[Guest]

People are conscious after they die, whether they are in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil 1:23; Rev. 6:9) or in hell (Luke 16:23).

If a person already believes that people are conscious immediately after they die, then, for that person, the passages above seem to justify his belief.

However, he should also deal with the following passages:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; in Sheol who can give You praise?
Why should there be no remembrance of God in death, if one is conscious?
Sheol obviously refers to the grave. When you are in the grave, you can't praise God. Why? Because you're dead.

Psalm 146:3,4 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his thoughts perish.

If a man survives death, why would his thoughts perish on the day of his death (when his breath departs)?

People say that each of us has an immortal soul, but consider:

1 Timothy 6:16 [God] alone has immortality...

Why do the writers of the New Testament refer to death as "sleep" in so many places? If people are conscious somewhere after death, would they be asleep? If so, maybe "eternal torment" wouldn't be so bad after all!

Justin Martyr, born about 110 A.D. in his well-known "Dialogue with Trypho" (Trypho was a Jew) made the following statement:
"If you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, ... who say that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven, do not imagine that they are Christians..."

Paul made it clear in I Cor 15:18 that if there is no resurrection, "then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." If those who die in Christ simply go to heaven at death, then they have not perished.

II Corinthians 4:14 knowing that he who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus and bring us with you into his presence.

If we go to heaven at death, we would be in the presence of Jesus immediately. But Paul, in this passage stated that when God raises us to life again, He will bring us into the presence of Jesus.

[Guest]

I had to look that one up Paidion. I see the Justin Martyr quote just a little different when you fill in all the dots.

For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],195 and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae,196 Gelilaeans, Hellenists,197 Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him.
-Dialogue of Justin, Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. LXXX.

I see the "and that their souls, when they die" part of this sentence as simply being an extention of what is being denied. I don't see it as a seperate heresy, one in the negative and one in the affirmative. In otherwords, these are people that deny one of the basic Christian doctrines of resurrection of the dead and the on-going life of the believers soul in heaven. He's simply affirming what Paul declared in 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5:8.

Notice, he's comparing them with Saducees who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead.

[Guest]

[color=blue][color=blue][[color=blue]saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.
Luk 16:24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.'
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.

I'll just have to take Jesus at His word. If really meant the opposite of what He said, then on the day of judgement I expect to hparable.color=blue][Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.'

We learn that it's a place people go after death, some go to torment and some rest, the one in torment asked for mercy and got none. The one who was greedy and selfish did not heed Abraham, Moses or the law or would not have neglected the poor.

It goes on to say "a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us."

So none who are in torment may come out of it, nor was there any mercy to be found even when asked for it.

If Jesus didn't mean any of this then He's making a terrible and non-sensical point, especially if the reality was that people can cross from one side to the other buy repentace. color=blue]One thing that has amazed me in this thread is how many passages that don't have anything to do with what happends in "hell" are used to try and prove repentance and or salvation after death.

Yet in Luke 16, it clearly says the rich man dies and goes to Hades "Hell".

Steve, you say it's not about "hell". Hell is just a KJV term for Hades, Gehenna and Sheol, etc.

Luke 16 is clearly about this subject:

Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,
Luk 16:23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and [/color][/color][/color][/color]




Your amazement is duly noted but this is a parable/prophecy of the jews
(rich man) and the gentiles (Lazarus) reversing positions after Jesus's death. For they had Moses and the prophets certainly means the jews not all unbelievers and Father Abraham is not a father to anyone except the jews. They were rich with the Word of God but they did'nt share it with the gentiles who were poor in this life but would become comforted after receiving the GOSPEL. Once again the KJV is pushing their theology of eternal damnation which is so blatently obvious.

Firstly "hades" is the greek translation of "sheol" which means grave and the OT numerous times clearly states everyone sleeps in hades.
Second "tormented" according to Strongs #931 means touchstone to test purity of gold or silver or in this case a revealing of the truth.
Third the "flame" or greek word "phlox" is mentioned here without fire and this is the ONLY TIME in the bible that "flame" is mentioned without fire and in this case means "light."
How about the word "agony" , it means grieve because the same word is used in Luke 2.48 whwn Mary was looking for Jesus and could'nt find him and was SORROWFUL. From Strongs #3601 "to grieve."
So there was no physical pain it was mental anguish , and it's not about hell but actually a prophecy about the jews not looking to Jesus who is the true light and without the true light they would always grieve and be separated from paradise where they could see Father Abraham.
Lazarus is a metaphor for the "gentiles" for he was poor because he did'nt have the Word of God and the Rich Man was the jews because they were rich with the Word of God but did'nt share it with the gentiles who reversed positions with the jews after Jesus's death.
The "water" that could have metaphorically cooled the tongue of the rich man was the GOSPEL.

[Guest]

No, it says the grace of God has appeared to all men, it does not say that all men recieve it.

It's like the statement in John. Light has come into the world, those who do evil hate the light yet there are others who come to the light.

We do have to believe, there is a choice that has to be made unless the calvinist view is true and no choice is made.

By believe do you mean believe and follow Christ? If a muslim or Hindu or buddaist or someone who lived in a communist country never heard the gospel or Taoist or animist or native american or abariginee or jainist or countless others never heard the gospel how can they believe Christ. Does God allow them a lower standard?
The way i see it is most people in human history have not been preached the gospel of Christ so have not had an opportunity to believe it or not believe it. So if it's just to bad for them then that way of believing is not that much different from Calvinism because then it makes it seem like God elects who will hear the gospel and who will not.
I think God will give everyone a fair chance sometime and somewhere and He is not limited by our natural lives.

[Guest]

If a person already believes that people are conscious immediately after they die, then, for that person, the passages above seem to justify his belief.

However, he should also deal with the following passages:

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of You; in Sheol who can give You praise?

Why should there be no remembrance of God in death, if one is conscious? Sheol obviously refers to the grave. When you are in the grave, you can't praise God. Why? Because you're dead.!

"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." Psalm 139:8

Psalm 146:3,4 Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help. When his breath departs he returns to his earth; on that very day his thoughts perish.

If a man survives death, why would his thoughts perish on the day of his death (when his breath departs)?

"Thoughts perish" can imply a host of other interpretation other than what you suggest.

People say that each of us has an immortal soul, but consider:

1 Timothy 6:16 [God] alone has immortality...

Why do the writers of the New Testament refer to death as "sleep" in so many places? If people are conscious somewhere after death, would they be asleep? If so, maybe "eternal torment" wouldn't be so bad after all!

In the NT, God is the only one who “has” immortality, but He seems to impart immortality (life with Him) conditionally:

"Who will render to every man <b><u>according to his deeds</u></b>: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and <b><u>immortality</u></b>, eternal life" - Romans 2:6-7

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and <b><u>this mortal must put on immortality.</u></b>" - 1 Corithians 15:53

“But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and <b><u>hath brought life and immortality</u></b> to light through the gospel:” – 2 Timothy 1:10

New Testament writers (who were born-again Christians) refer to the death of Christians as "sleep" because they know that there sins are forgiven, and that they have mansions in heaven. "Sleep" connotates pleasantness and ease.

Unbelievers have no such assurance. And in the context of unbelievers, the connotation is not so pleasant:

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power” - 2 Thessalonians 1:9

By believe do you mean believe and follow Christ? If a muslim or Hindu or buddaist or someone who lived in a communist country never heard the gospel or Taoist or animist or native american or abariginee or jainist or countless others never heard the gospel how can they believe Christ. Does God allow them a lower standard?

Do you believe that people have a free will? If so, then those other “religions” you’ve describe have willingly gone the opposite way of Christ.

Remember, STEVE7150, the Law is written on their hearts. Each one of them!! They, indeed, know the right way to go, their conscience convicts them, and they willingly go the opposite. Why? Why do they go astray? God Himself gives many reasons. For security, for money, for countless reasons.

The main point is that, yes, many people haven’t heard the Gospel yet. But that’s not to say that they won’t sometime in their lifetime. Who knows!! Maybe God will use you! Who knows!! Maybe He will use a talking donkey!! All we know is that God will do it. I will leave the “how” up to Him.

The way i see it is most people in human history have not been preached the gospel of Christ so have not had an opportunity to believe it or not believe it. So if it's just to bad for them then that way of believing is not that much different from Calvinism because then it makes it seem like God elects who will hear the gospel and who will not.

God is the not the God we make Him. From many scriptures, God will somehow bring the Gospel in some form, and bring every person an opportunity to turn to Him.

I think God will give everyone a fair chance sometime and somewhere and He is not limited by our natural lives.

Please quote me scriptures for this conclusion you’ve made. In my biblical research, God gives them plenty chance. And when they don’t yield to Him in this life, well, then the consequence isn’t that good.

Good never speaks of second chances, so it’s not good to speculate.

[Guest]

Rev 20.15 " And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the LOF"

21.4 "For the former things HAVE PASSED AWAY" What has passed away? I'm thinking evil has passed away.
21.5 "Behold i make ALL THINGS new" What are ALL things?
21.7 "He who OVERCOMES shall inherit ALL THINGS" But the believers have already overcome in their past life so then what does it mean speaking in a future tense "HE WHO OVERCOMES? And where will he do the OVERCOMING?

21.8 "But the COWARDLY ,unbelievers,etc SHALL have their part in the LOF"
Why would John say this AT THIS POINT when unbelievers were ALREADY
thrown into the LOF before? This sounds like they can still repent since he is using FUTURE TENSE.

21.9 "Come I will show you the bride , the Lamb's wife" The bride are the body of believers.

21.25 "It's gates (NJ) shall not be shut at all"
IMHO this is symbolic that the invitation is still open.

22.17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say. Come! And let him who thirsts come. WHOEVER DESIRES , let him take THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY."


The bride is the body of believers and along with the Holy Spirit is inviting WHOEVER to come through the OPEN GATES to partake of the water of life. The WHOEVER are people who are not included in the bride up to that point.
"With God all things are possible!"

Check it out Loaves with an unbiased mind. This is after people are in the supposed eternal lake of fire.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Guest]

I see the "and that their souls, when they die" part of this sentence as simply being an extention of what is being denied. I don't see it as a seperate heresy, one in the negative and one in the affirmative. In otherwords, these are people that deny one of the basic Christian doctrines of resurrection of the dead and the on-going life of the believers soul in heaven. He's simply affirming what Paul declared in 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5:8.

Notice, he's comparing them with Saducees who didn't believe in the resurrection of the dead.

I agree that "and that their souls, when they die" is "an extension of what is being denied". What is being denied is the resurrection.

I am sure that Justin is speaking primarily here of the gnostics who were
called "Christians" but who did not believe in the resurrection, since our bodies and all other matter was considered to be the inferior stuff created by Yahweh, "god of the Jews", who "thought he was the supreme God but was mistaken." Thus they believed that the resurrection was the spirit or soul "escaping its prison" and going to heaven at death. The body would decay and be gone forever (In today's parlance, the gnostics would say "good riddance".

Yes Justin was saying in essence that just as the Sadducees and others are only "called Jews" but are not real Jews, so the gnostics are only "called Christians" but are not real Christians.

Nevetheless, I think that Justin believed that our lives with God in heaven depended upon the resurrection ---- just as Paul believed. I don't think he forsaw that Christians 1900 years later would believe in bodily resurrection AND the soul going to heaven at death. If that were true, what would be the purpose of the "resurrection of the body" (a term not used in scripture). Why not be content with being a disembodied soul or spirit forever in heaven? And if the story of the rich man and Lazarus is an actual description of the afterlife, as several posters seem to believe, then why have a "resurrected body"? The rich man had "eyes" that he lifted up, and a "tongue" that needed cooling. So they must have had some sort of "heavenly body". Why attach a resurrected body to this? By the way, would the rich man really have had any significant relief if he had had a drop of water placed upon his tongue? In our present bodies, I am sure we wouldn't. But perhaps with that ethereal body that the rich man supposedly had, it would have been a relief. The whole thing doesn't make sense to me, nor does it accord with the rest of scripture concerning the after life.

No, the story of the rich man and Lazarus is clearly a parable couched within a number of other parables. It is also a description of the belief of the Jews in the day that Josephus wrote "A discourse Concerning Hades".
Josephus' description of Hades ("hell" if you prefer, Loaves) is identical to that which Jesus gave in this parable. Jesus was using a common belief among the Jews to illustrate the point that even if it were possible for a person to return from the dead with the truth, the Pharisees still would not believe.

[Guest]

Check it out Loaves with an unbiased mind. This is after people are in the supposed eternal lake of fire.

Yes I try to approach every subject with an unbiased, open mind. I know I don’t have all the answers. I’m teachable. Yet, I’m a Berean to. The Bereans searched the scriptures to determine whether the things being taught were true or false.

Pertaining to the scriptures you mentioned, you have forgotten to include a very imperative verse occurring even after the verses you mentioned:

“He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still” – Rev. 22:11

21.8 "But the COWARDLY ,unbelievers,etc SHALL have their part in the LOF"
Why would John say this AT THIS POINT when unbelievers were ALREADY
thrown into the LOF before? This sounds like they can still repent since he is using FUTURE TENSE.

As we all well know, it is not always best to view the book of Revelation as a book of chronological events happening subsequently. Yet chapters 20, 21, and 22 seem to be chronological. Because of that fact, I must say this, John lived, oh let’s see, about 1900 years ago. He’s saying from that perspective, yes, they “Shall Have” their part in the LOF., which, by the way, burns forever and ever. John is possibly looking into the future, from his standpoint around A.D. 100.

There are countless other ways to explain that verse.

What difference does it really make of what tense John is speaking in, when he says they will burn forever and ever? In Galatians and 1 Corinthians, Paul specifically says that all sinners cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. Period.

21.25 "It's gates (NJ) shall not be shut at all"
IMHO this is symbolic that the invitation is still open.

Of course the gates are still open. But that doesn’t do sinners any good if they’re locked away in hell. The smoke of their burning rises forever and ever, remember? Jesus and Paul said the punishment would be everlasting, remember? Paul and Jesus said in many places that sinners cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, remember?

You also mentioned that whoever desires to, may partake of the Water of Life. This is Barnes’ commentary on 21:25:

<b>And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day</b> - It shall be constantly open, allowing free ingress and egress to all who reside there. The language is derived from Isa_60:11. See the notes on that place. Applied to the future state of the blessed, it would seem to mean, that while this will be their permanent abode, yet that the dwellers there will not be prisoners. The universe will be open to them. They will be permitted to go forth and visit every world, and survey the works of God in all parts of his dominions.

With those statements being made, the rest of your argument seems to lose its support.