Heb 8:7-13

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:56 pm

To me, the Greek definition of “aionios” is clear as a bell. It means: everlasting. Simply put.

Well i agree that you put it simply but simply unscriptural. Scripture unambigously tells us that "aion" ,"aions" and the adjective "aionios" are used for finite periods of time. That's not my opinion but how it is used in scripture "simply put."

There was time before the aions. 1 Cor 2.7
God made the aions. Heb 1.2
There were aions in the past. Col 1.26
This present evil aion. Gal 1.4
This present aion will come to an end. Matt 24.3
There is coming another aion after this present aion. Luke 18.30
There are coming aions. Eph 2.7
The aions of the aions Eph 3.21
All aions will come to all their ends 1 Cor 10.11

The way aion is used in these verses as well as others proves it's a finite period of time therefore since it's the root of aionios , then aionios can not mean eternal but ages upon ages or age abiding.

Just because a bible translation like the KJV uses words like everlasting simply demonstrates their bias. The KJV also translates "hades" into hell which it is not for it means grave and the KJV goes into the OT and numerous times translates "sheol" as hell even though it also means grave. The KJV is highly biased in pushing eternal damnation as a doctrine regardless of how inaccurate they are.

And i asked you Loaves about the fact that the majority of people over history have never rejected or accepted Christ because they did'nt have that opportunity and you answered me by saying people have freewill and they know the right way to go, so do you believe people are saved if they proceed in the right way to go?
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Post by _Sean » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:27 am

For those who say that the gospel has not reached millions of people so they have to hear it sometime, like in the LOF.

What can stop me from just quoting this passage over and over again:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world

Grace, that brings salvation has appered to all men. Not some of them, not most of them, all of them. Aparently, it's possible that grace can come to all men and they reject the grace of God. Now if there isn't a running total kept of this, how could we conjecture that not everyone gets a chance to repent before they die? It's at least as likely as getting another chance in the LOF.

There are many times passages have been brought up to show that 'such and such' affects all men, God has reconciled all men, every knee will bow etc. Well salvation has come to all men. Again, I don't think this is what Paul is trying to comunicate, but its possible.

In Malachi, God said He would keep a book of rememberance of those "who feared the LORD and honored his name". Apparently, this applies to those who were doing so under apostate leadership and during their lifetime. Those are the ones God writes down in the book that I believe is the same as the book of life seen in Revelation.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:19 am

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world

Then a great many muslims and orthodox jews are saved and certainly buddaists and new agers too.
Don't we have to believe and follow Christ or is living a godly life enough?
I thought Isaiah said "there is none righteous , no not one."
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Post by _loaves » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:57 am

STEVE7150 wrote:Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world

Then a great many muslims and orthodox jews are saved and certainly buddaists and new agers too. Don't we have to believe and follow Christ or is living a godly life enough? I thought Isaiah said "there is none righteous , no not one."
There are many, many passages that say that salvation will go out to the entire world. Each one will someday on this earth know the Gospel message. Of course they don't know all at once.

But I believe that God's ways are not our ways. And His commands don't need to be reasonable. His commands don't need to be understood.

His commands just need to be obeyed.

Orthodox Muslims are not saved because they reject the Gospel. Orthodox Jews are not saved because they reject Jesus as savior. Orthodox Bhudists are not saved because they believe works will save them. Orthodox "New Agers" are not saved because the are actually polytheists.

I try not to be judgmental. But God be true and every man a liar.
Steve7150 wrote:Well i agree that you put it simply but simply unscriptural. Scripture unambigously tells us that "aion" ,"aions" and the adjective "aionios" are used for finite periods of time. That's not my opinion but how it is used in scripture "simply put.
"Finite" simply means "not infinite." And since "everlasting" punishment has a beginning point, it is therefore "finite." It just simply goes on and on, never ending. I believe my claims are very scriptural.
mdh wrote:Will they get a chance to hear and accept His grace after the resurrection? Will they have no chance and simply perish? Will they suffer eternal torment? I don't know.
I believe every person on this earth will hear the Gospel in someway. This is implied by countless scriptures we have already mentioned.

Don't let your emotions rule you. Don't be so dogmatically inclusive. Don't rationalize simply because you think some scriptures depict God as too harsh.

God bless,
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"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)

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Post by _Father_of_five » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:54 am

I appreciate everyone's willingness to share your opinions on this topic. I have found that there is enough evidence in scripture to question the traditional view of Hell. At this point I believe the following is true.

1. Christ has reconciled the world unto himself.
2. There is a time coming in which all of God's creation will willingly and joyfully worship Christ.
3. The unfaithful will be punished. I believe this is what is meant by "all things will be subdued unto him."
4. The last enemy that Christ will defeat is death, which, to me, includes the second death.

I have tried to present different ideas on how all this can be worked out, but I can not say that with confidence that any of them are correct. I try to remain open minded on this issue.

Todd
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Post by _loaves » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:28 pm

Father_of_Five wrote:2. There is a time coming in which all of God's creation will willingly and joyfully worship Christ.
This is Albert Barnes’ (for what it’s worth) commentary on Romans 14:11:

- - - -

<b>Every knee shall bow to me</b> – “To bow the knee” is an act expressing homage, submission, or adoration. It means that every person shall acknowledge him as God, and admit his right to universal dominion. The passage in Isaiah refers particularly to the homage which “his own people” should render to him; or rather, it means that all who are saved shall acknowledge “him” as their God and Saviour. The original reference was not to “all men,” but only to those who should be saved; Isa_45:17, Isa_45:21-22, Isa_45:24. In this sense the apostle uses it; not as denoting that “all men” should confess to God, but that all “Christians,” whether Jewish or Gentile converts, should alike give account to Him. “They” should all bow before their common God, and acknowledge “his” dominion over them. The passage originally did not refer particularly to the day of judgment, but expressed the truth that all believers should acknowledge his dominion. It is as applicable, however, to the judgment, as to any other act of homage which his people will render.

<b>Every tongue shall confess to God</b> - In the Hebrew, “Every tongue shall swear.” Not swear “by God,” but “to him;” that is, pay to him our vows, or “answer to him on oath” for our conduct; and this is the same as confessing to him, or acknowledging him as our Judge.

- - - -

Any thoughts??
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"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)

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Post by _loaves » Thu Mar 23, 2006 5:42 pm

I found the following article online. This guy is probably a Calvinists for all I know, so I don’t know anything about him. But this looked interesting.

- - - -

<b>The Duration of Hell</b>

Many unbelievers would be willing to accept a temporary hell, but the Bible speaks of it as everlasting.

<b>Hell Will Last as Long as Does God</b>. The Bible declares that God will endure forever (Ps. 90:1-2). Indeed, he had no beginning and has no end (Rev. one eight). He created all things (John 1:3; Col. 1:15-16), and he will abide after this world is destroyed (2 Peter 3:10-12). But God, by his very nature, cannot tolerate evil (Isaiah 6; Hab. 1:13). Hence, evil persons must be separated from God forever. As long as God is God and evil is evil, the latter must be separated from the former.

<b>Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does</b>. Heaven is described as "everlasting" in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is "everlasting" (Matt. 25:41; cf. vs. 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell. There is absolutely no ground in Scripture for supposing that hell is temporal and heaven is eternal.

<b>Nor is there a possibility of getting out of hell</b>. A great gulf is fixed so no one can leave (Luke 16:26). Judgment begins immediately after death (John 8:21; Heb. 9:27). This is not unlike the fact that some decisions in life are irreversible. Suicide is a one-way street.

<b>People are conscious after they die, whether they are in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil 1:23; Rev. 6:9) or in hell (Luke 16:23).</b> The Beast was still conscious after a thousand years in hell (Rev. 19:20; 20:10). It makes no sense to resurrect unbelievers to everlasting judgment (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29) before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) unless they are conscious.

Source: http://www.ankerberg.com/Articles/theol ... 1101W1.htm

- - - -

Also some images that looked interesting:

Image
Image
Image
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"And when he had taken the five loaves and the two fishes, he looked up to heaven, and blessed, and brake the loaves...And they did all eat, and were filled" (Mark 6:41-42)

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:12 pm

People are conscious after they die, whether they are in heaven (2 Cor. 5:8; Phil 1:23; Rev. 6:9) or in hell (Luke 16:23). The Beast was still conscious after a thousand years in hell (Rev. 19:20; 20:10). It makes no sense to resurrect unbelievers to everlasting judgment (Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29) before the Great White Throne (Rev. 20:11-15) unless they are conscious.


The Rich Man and Lazarus is not about hell it is about the jews looking to Father Abraham for salvation. "They had Moses and the Prophets" ,who had Moses and the prophets? Who looked to Father Abraham? Who would'nt believe even if one were raised from the dead? Who?
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:43 pm

Hell Will Last as Long as Heaven Does. Heaven is described as "everlasting" in the Bible. But the same Greek word (aionion), used in the same context, also affirmed that hell is "everlasting" (Matt. 25:41; cf. vs. 46; 2 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 20:10). So, if heaven is forever, so is hell. There is absolutely no ground in Scripture for supposing that hell is temporal and heaven is eternal.
Really let's check it out.

Rev 20.15 " And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the LOF"

21.4 "For the former things HAVE PASSED AWAY" What has passed away? I'm thinking evil has passed away.
21.5 "Behold i make ALL THINGS new" What are ALL things?
21.7 "He who OVERCOMES shall inherit ALL THINGS" But the believers have already overcome in their past life so then what does it mean speaking in a future tense "HE WHO OVERCOMES? And where will he do the OVERCOMING?

21.8 "But the COWARDLY ,unbelievers,etc SHALL have their part in the LOF"
Why would John say this AT THIS POINT when unbelievers were ALREADY
thrown into the LOF before? This sounds like they can still repent since he is using FUTURE TENSE.

21.9 "Come I will show you the bride , the Lamb's wife" The bride are the body of believers.

21.25 "It's gates (NJ) shall not be shut at all"
IMHO this is symbolic that the invitation is still open.

22.17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say. Come! And let him who thirsts come. WHOEVER DESIRES , let him take THE WATER OF LIFE FREELY."


The bride is the body of believers and along with the Holy Spirit is inviting WHOEVER to come through the OPEN GATES to partake of the water of life.
The WHOEVER are people who are not included in the bride up to that point.
"With God all things are possible!"
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Post by _Sean » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:55 pm

STEVE7150 wrote:Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world

Then a great many muslims and orthodox jews are saved and certainly buddaists and new agers too.
Don't we have to believe and follow Christ or is living a godly life enough?
No, it says the grace of God has appeared to all men, it does not say that all men recieve it.

It's like the statement in John. Light has come into the world, those who do evil hate the light yet there are others who come to the light.

We do have to believe, there is a choice that has to be made unless the calvinist view is true and no choice is made.
STEVE7150 wrote: I thought Isaiah said "there is none righteous , no not one."
Not sure what you point is here, but if all means all then wouldn't this include Jesus too? No, but this is another example of how we should try to get to the meaning of Paul is saying in that context rather than making a universal truth from a few statements.

Anyway, since there is not direct statement in scripture that teaches such a profound doctrine and at least a few that teach "x" life for believers and a not so great opposite of "x" life for unbelievers I'll go on the assumption that this may not change after the day of judgement.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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