Heb 8:7-13

[mgarrett]

Those who have done evil in the body have not paid this off by death,...

Sean,

If that is the case, then what is meant by these two scriptures?

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Also, in favor of your view, is the strange statement of Paul, in Romans 6:7, which, in the Greek, actually reads, "He who has died is justified (or cleared) of sin." I have always wondered about the meaning of that statement, and it sounds similar to your view.

I am not saying that physical death is the only penalty for the unfaithful. If that were the case, then christians suffer the same penalty. But I think it is possible that there is an additional punishment for the unjust that accompanies death in which the soul is destroyed (whatever that means). This may be what Paul was referring to when he said, "tribulation and anguish to everyone who does evil" in Rom 2. I am not trying to be dogmatic, just trying to make all the pieces fit.

Todd

[Guest]

We've had enough of this nonsense that the Greek word krisis means the same thing as the English word crises so therefore that's what the New Testament writers meant when they used it. Frequently it is most obviously used to mean judgement or condemnation. It was used as a type of a court of justice among the Jews before the Roman government was established that had the power of life and death and punished criminals by strangling or beheading. (I suppose for the criminal you could say that was a crises!)


Homer, how nice to hear from you! I heard you on Steve's show asking about the atonement , you have a good radio voice. When are we gonna see your picture. Don't be modest now.
I have no issue that "krisis" can mean judgement , i simply do take issue that it means damnation or conviction. Notice in your example it referred to a court of law in which normally a trial would take place and Jesus is the judge. That's sounds good to me.

[Guest]

Steve7150,

Well, one of these days when I get the digital camera that my sweet wife bought me figured out I will see if I can get a decent picture there. (Come to think of it, decent might not be possible.)

Todd,

I believe that Romans 6:7 is plain and easily understood in the context of the whole chapter. If we understand baptism as I believe it was understood and practiced by the earliest Christians, we get the idea that in being baptized we died to our old life and rose to live a new one. Note in particular vss. 3-6. Christ, through the power of the Spirit, has set us free from bondage to sin! I do not see any reference whatever to physical death.

I believe v. 23 refers to spiritual death, separation from God, the eternal state of those outside Christ. This death is a result of our own sin, physical death is the result of Adam's sin.

A person who has a different view of baptism, in particular that it is merely testimony to those witnessing it, might be puzzled by the verse. I have more than once attended baptisms where those in attendance were gratuitiously lectured on the baptism/testimony view, even going so far as to assert that this passage in Romans has nothing to do with water baptism! Seems to be an absurd prejudicial view.

[Guest]

I confidently believe God will punish sinners with “everlasting” fire. Why? Because He said so.

I do too. But this is the whole issue....what exactly does that mean?

Todd

Brother, we don’t need to get a phD in Greek to know what “everlasting” means. Splitting the word apart in our English language I get: “Lasting” [for] “Ever.”

But if you insist, I look up “everlasting” in Strong’s and find it is number 166 in the Greek dictionary thing. In most cases in the OT it is number 5769 in the Hebrew dictionary thing.

166 – aionios: eternal, long ago, everlasting, world began, forever, since world began.
Commentary: The final place of everlasting punishment is the Lake of Fire

5769 – olam: everlasting, forever, eternity, from of old

Now, I have an old version, I think, of Strong’s so these definitions could be wrong.

Those who have done evil in the body have not paid this off by death,...

Sean,

If that is the case, then what is meant by these two scriptures?

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

I agree with Homer.

To put Romans 6:23 in context, Paul is speaking of everlasting realms. He speaks of eternal life. The counterpart of eternal life is eternal spiritual death. Whoever sins is rewarded with everlasting spiritual death. Praise God, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to make <u>those that believe on Him</u> spiritually alive!

Romans 6:7, I believe is speaking of our old sin nature. Putting this verse in context (i.e. verse 6), Paul is speaking of our “old man.” When we die to ourselves, our old sin nature, we are made alive by Jesus, we are thus made freed from sin, and made slaves of righteousness. Hallelujah!

I have no issue that "krisis" can mean judgement , i simply do take issue that it means damnation or conviction. Notice in your example it referred to a court of law in which normally a trial would take place and Jesus is the judge. That's sounds good to me.

Picture this with me. Today is Judgment day. Jesus says “Roll it, Gabriel!!” And Gabriel pops in a video tape of your whole life. Everything you’ve done. Everything you’ve said. In secret. In the dark. Jesus points out to you that He gave you plenty opportunity to respond to Him, and you rejected Him, time and time again. Once the video is done He says: “Now, what punishment do you deserve?”

What did Jesus say again? “The wages of sin is death.” Those were the rules. And you knew it. Christ then says: “depart from me, for I never knew you.”

[mgarrett]

I confidently believe God will punish sinners with “everlasting” fire. Why? Because He said so.

I do too. But this is the whole issue....what exactly does that mean?

Todd

Brother, we don’t need to get a phD in Greek to know what “everlasting” means.

Loaves,

That is NOT what I was asking. You said, "God will punish sinners with everlasting fire." There have been many different viewpoints expressed as to what this punishment is. Some say it means torture, some say it means remedial correction. We all agree that sinners will be punished, but we don't seem to be able to come to a concensus on the method or the purpose.

Todd

[Guest]

[color=blue]Picture this with me. Today is Judgment day. Jesus says “Roll it, Gabriel!!” And Gabriel pops in a video tape of your whole life. Everything you’ve done. Everything you’ve said. In secret. In the dark. Jesus points out to you that He gave you plenty opportunity to respond to Him, and you rejected Him, time and time again. Once the video is done He says: “Now, what punishment do you deserve?”

What did Jesus say again? “The wages of sin is death.” Those were the rules. And you knew it. Christ then says: “depart from me, for I never knew you.”[/color]

Of course most people over the course of history have neither accepted or rejected Christ because they have never heard of him. So Loaves what do you think will happen to them?

[Guest]

BTW for all the greek scholars out there as Paidion has pointed out there is only one true koine greek word for ETERNAL or EVERLASTING and it ain't "aion" or any derivation like "aionios." It's "aidios" and this word is NOT USED to describe hell or the LOF or hades or punishment.
Why not?
There are at least 5 "aions" in the bible and probably more.

[mgarrett]

I agree with Homer.

To put Romans 6:23 in context, Paul is speaking of everlasting realms. He speaks of eternal life. The counterpart of eternal life is eternal spiritual death. Whoever sins is rewarded with everlasting spiritual death. Praise God, He sent His Son Jesus Christ to make <u>those that believe on Him</u> spiritually alive!

Romans 6:7, I believe is speaking of our old sin nature. Putting this verse in context (i.e. verse 6), Paul is speaking of our “old man.” When we die to ourselves, our old sin nature, we are made alive by Jesus, we are thus made freed from sin, and made slaves of righteousness. Hallelujah!

Okay, if this is talking about spiritual death where the "old man" is put to death, then isn't it possible that the "everlasting destruction" spoken of by Paul is also spiritual where the "old man" is destroyed? I have brought this up before. That which is sinful in us, our sin nature, is called the "old man." This is what must be put to death so that the "inward man" may live. Perhaps then, that is also what is destroyed in the lake of fire. This would make sense to me - that which is sinful would be removed - the "old man" put to death, not willingly, but by the brightness of Christ's coming. This could be a very traumatic event for the sinner (filled with tribulation and anguish) and very well satisfy all the warnings we read about in the New Testament.

Once the "old man" is destroyed and the inward man freed, it would clear the way for the fulfillment of God's devine purpose, namely....

Eph 1:9-10
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Todd

[Guest]

I do too. But this is the whole issue....what exactly does that mean?

Todd

Brother, we don’t need to get a phD in Greek to know what “everlasting” means.

Loaves,

That is NOT what I was asking. You said, "God will punish sinners with everlasting fire." There have been many different viewpoints expressed as to what this punishment is. Some say it means torture, some say it means remedial correction. We all agree that sinners will be punished, but we don't seem to be able to come to a concensus on the method or the purpose.

Todd

Yes I agree with you that sinners will be punished in the LOF. Most of us nod our heads to that statement. But you want reasons why God would send people there, eh? Well, God doesn’t send them there. They sent themselves there. God gave them a warning and a qualitative consequence. The wages of sin is death. ‘Nuff said.

Of course most people over the course of history have neither accepted or rejected Christ because they have never heard of him. So Loaves what do you think will happen to them?

Do you not believe that men have a free will, or as some would have it: freedom of choice? Those people you describe have the Holy Law of God written in their hearts. Each one of them. We are in the New Covenant. God’s law is not in a document anymore. It is a spiritual law that transcends the physical. And these people willingly choose to “kick against the pricks” as Paul did as an unbeliever, don’t they? Each one, I believe, knows the right way to go. And each one willingly goes the opposite direction. To say that men eventually wind up heaven, regardless of their actions (i.e. - universalism, hell not everlasting) is actually a form of predestination, verging on Calvinism.

I believe what Jesus believes. Jesus will deny those that deny Him.

BTW for all the greek scholars out there as Paidion has pointed out there is only one true koine greek word for ETERNAL or EVERLASTING and it ain't "aion" or any derivation like "aionios." It's "aidios" and this word is NOT USED to describe hell or the LOF or hades or punishment.

To me, the Greek definition of “aionios” is clear as a bell. It means: everlasting. Simply put.

Okay, if this is talking about spiritual death where the "old man" is put to death, then isn't it possible that the "everlasting destruction" spoken of by Paul is also spiritual where the "old man" is destroyed? I have brought this up before. That which is sinful in us, our sin nature, is called the "old man." This is what must be put to death so that the "inward man" may live. Perhaps then, that is also what is destroyed in the lake of fire. This would make sense to me - that which is sinful would be removed - the "old man" put to death, not willingly, but by the brightness of Christ's coming. This could be a very traumatic event for the sinner (filled with tribulation and anguish) and very well satisfy all the warnings we read about in the New Testament.

Yes the “old man” dies a spiritual death. We should not speculate, but everlasting punishment may also be spiritual. But the keyword here is “everlasting.” Whatever it is, physical or spiritual, it will last forever. To say that the unrepentant sinner will be separated unwillingly from his old man, is IMHO to take away a man’s free will. Don’t you think so to? Verging on Calvinism. Christ’s cleansing power in strictly conditional:

“<u>If we confess our sins</u>, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to <u>cleanse us from all unrighteousness</u>” – 1 John 1:9

“And <u>whosoever</u> was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” – Rev. 20:15

This verse, to me, doesn’t differentiate between “spiritual” and “physical.” It speaks of a whole person, just as it speaks of Satan as a whole person.

Eph 1:10: “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things <b><u>in Christ</u></b>, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”

The keyword here is “in Christ.” Those who are “in Christ” will bear fruit as is stated in John 15:15:

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

[Guest]

Loaves,

I am not as confident as you that I know the fate of those who have never heard the gospel. To you it seems clear. Not to me. In fact, the more I study/research the more I understand that there are reasonable arguments for several different positions. Will they get a chance to hear and accept His grace after the resurrection? Will they have no chance and simply perish? Will they suffer eternal torment? I don't know.

I also find myself wondering how many years of Greek you have taken, since from my research the meaning of certain Greek words is not as clear to me as it seems to you. We all know what everlasting means in English, but how the words in Greek get translated to that word is not always just as clear.

What I think we can all agree on is that "the Judge of all the earth" will do right!

I know I want Him to be merciful to me, and those I love who have yet to come to trust Him as I do! And I know I am very grateful that I live in a country where the gospel is fairly well available. Not all are so fortunate...


Mike