Heb 8:7-13

[Guest]

Notwithstanding Thayer, aionios does not have to mean eternal, forever, without end, etc.

It is used more than once in the Bible to describe events that we know were not "eternal" -- for example Jude 7 - where Sodom was described as experiencing eternal (aionios) fire as an example for us.

It is an adjective, and I sense that it can be used to mean "sourced from God", the eternal one. Just as Sodom experienced the "eternal" fire from God when it was judged, just as we experience "eternal" life when we know God (John 17:3), we can experience "eternal" correction/punishment when we are judged by God (Matt 25:46).

One can receive "eternal" life from the eternal God, and not ever die. One can also receive "eternal" punishment from the eternal God, and it does not have to last forever (as in the case of Sodom).

This is my current take on it, and I could be very wrong.

[Guest]

Notwithstanding Thayer, aionios does not have to mean eternal, forever, without end, etc.

It is used more than once in the Bible to describe events that we know were not "eternal" -- for example Jude 7 - where Sodom was described as experiencing eternal (aionios) fire as an example for us.

It is an adjective, and I sense that it can be used to mean "sourced from God", the eternal one. Just as Sodom experienced the "eternal" fire from God when it was judged, just as we experience "eternal" life when we know God (John 17:3), we can experience "eternal" correction/punishment when we are judged by God (Matt 25:46).

One can receive "eternal" life from the eternal God, and not ever die. One can also receive "eternal" punishment from the eternal God, and it does not have to last forever (as in the case of Sodom).

This is my current take on it, and I could be very wrong.

As far as the Jude example, it seems that Sodom was "eternally" destroyed in that it's gone forever, not coming back. Unless one day it could, but how can that be? If a remnant was not preserved as was the case with Israel.

Anyway, I agree that context can determine the meaning. That again is why I pointed to passages that show two seemingly contrasting events, eternal life and eternal punishment. If eternal means eternal in the first case, I don't see how it can logically not mean eternal in the same sentence regarding those judged to be punished. It just doesn't seem logical to me. But that's just me.

According to Loaves the Holy Spirit sends out the gospel of Christ to everyone in the world but i don't see that said in scripture , i think Loaves you are reading more into it then is there. In the great commisssion did Jesus say to his disciples "And stay here in Israel to teach the jews while i send the Holy Spirit out to the rest of the world?"

How did Cornelius get the gospel? Not by Peter willingly going, but by God telling him to. He told him to go, and this led to Cornelius and his household being saved. God didn't let him "slip through the cracks" as it were, yet you seem reluctant to agree that this can happen today. I don't understand why not. A biblical precident was set, why can't it continue. You guys are arguing that God can't let people loose out to the devil by eternal torment in hell because God is too powerful to let this happen, but is He not powerful enough to get the gospel to who has responded to His light of creation as per Romans 1?

I can see the possiblity either way, so I don't see how anyone can be slanted only one way on this. How can God be powerful enough to save everyone, but not powerful enough to get the gospel to those who will respond. You can assume most people have never heard the gospel, but you can't possibly know for sure what the numbers are. Nor can you know if people didn't get the gospel by other means, such as Paul.

[Guest]

Sean,

My thought is this. When a believer's body dies their soul continues to live in the presence of Jesus. If someone is not a believer their soul dies too, as in this verse...

Matt 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Life is not eternal for the unbeliever. It is interrupted when their body dies - there is no continuity of life. But we do know that all are resurrected - both the just and the unjust.

Acts 24:15
...that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

So even though they have perished they will live again.

Now, if the wages of sin is death, then have they already suffered God's wrath for their sinful life?....they perished, didn't they? So if they live again are they made alive in Christ since Christ has reconciled the world unto himself?

I disagree. If that were the case, there would be no reason God would or could raise that dead and then judge them, because they would have already paid for their sin by death. If you go to court and pay your fine, they aren't going to judge you after you have made restitution. Yet we are told we are going to be judged by what we have done in the body.

1 Cor 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

According to this verse, the same "all" that died in Adam (everyone), will be made alive in Christ.

And it goes on to say that each is in his own order, Christ and those who are Chirsts' at His coming. Not everyone belongs to Christ. So "in Christ" all shall be made alive can mean all those in Christ.

Even so, all being made alive may only refer to the resurrection, which does come to all men, but then they are judged.

Rom 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Think of Jesus. He took upon himself the sin of the whole world. What was the penalty for sin in his case? He died a painful death on the cross. Then he was raised from death. Is this our pattern?

1 Cor 15:26
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Todd

The free gift does come to all men, but it comes by faith not automatically (Rom 5:1-2). Or another way of putting it is all men get the gift, but there are those who reject the gift.

I could quote this passage to make that point:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,

You see, I can say that all men on earth have had the grace of God teach them, yet we see many people who have apparently rejected this.

This passage seems to refute that anyone has not had the grace of God appear to them and teach them.

But I don't think this is what is being stated by Paul, nor do I think the passages you quote refer to all men universally unconditionally. If that were the case, then the condemnation of Adam would have also fallen on Jesus who was a man as well. "Death came to all men because all sinned", would mean Jesus sinned too.


Death is defeated when there is no more death, but it doesn't say there won't be people who are being punished in the LOF. There will be "wrath and anger" for those who disobey.

Romans 2:7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

[Guest]

How did Cornelius get the gospel? Not by Peter willingly going, but by God telling him to. He told him to go, and this led to Cornelius and his household being saved. God didn't let him "slip through the cracks" as it were, yet you seem reluctant to agree that this can happen today. I don't understand why not. A biblical precident was set, why can't it continue. You guys are arguing that God can't let people loose out to the devil by eternal torment in hell because God is too powerful to let this happen, but is He not powerful enough to get the gospel to who has responded to His light of creation as per Romans 1?

No one said God is not powerful enough it's just He has his ways and timetables of doing things and apparently they take time. A self professing Christian is shortly to be executed in Afganistan for violating Sheria law and BEING CHRISTIAN. Same thing would happen in Saudi Arabia if you are CAUGHT WITH A BIBLE. This is reality in many parts of the world , there is no freedom of religion, NONE. Millions maybe billions simply can not read the bible because it's not available. But Paul said "Christ WILL BE PREACHED TO EVERY MAN IN DUE TIME" Where and when will this be? Answer in the LOF.
God could send angels to every individual to personally deliver the gospel or send dreams to everyone but there is no evidence He has in general, but the way i understand the verses applying to people in the LOF it sounds to me that repentence is possible there although there are not many details given. And with regards to your previous statement that everyone would repent if they had no choice , first of all God can read the heart and knows true repentence and secondly why would'nt they have a choice since i'm sure God at some point would destroy the ungodly since evil will be detroyed in the universe eventually.

[Guest]

As far as the Jude example, it seems that Sodom was "eternally" destroyed in that it's gone forever, not coming back. Unless one day it could, but how can that be? If a remnant was not preserved as was the case with Israel.

Anyway, I agree that context can determine the meaning. That again is why I pointed to passages that show two seemingly contrasting events, eternal life and eternal punishment. If eternal means eternal in the first case, I don't see how it can logically not mean eternal in the same sentence regarding those judged to be punished. It just doesn't seem logical to me. But that's just me.

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Sean,

I was trying to point out that the word aionios has uses other than eternal, forever, without end. In the Jude example, it is not Sodom that is "eternally" destroyed, but the adjective aionios is associated with the fire that destroys Sodom - and Sodom does not appear to still be on fire. My view is that the "eternal fire" is describing a kind of fire, rather than how long it burns.

Other passages (e.g. Jonah 2:6 in the LXX) use aionios in ways that are clearly not describing forever.

So, it is *possible* that when Jesus said that we would have eternal life (in John 17:3, Matt 25:46, elsewhere) it does not necessarily mean it is forever, but that it is describing a kind of life (a kind where we actually know and experience the living God). I am NOT disputing that it is forever, as you demonstrated by quoting Jn. 10:28. Just that, this is not *necessarily* what Jesus is trying to point out.

In the same way that Sodom experienced a special kind of fire ( a kind that is sourced in God, and completely consumes), the unjust in Mt 25 may experience a special kind of correction (if that is the correct translation of kolasis - as my research seems to indicate). The kind of correction that perfectly corrects.

I am still investigating this, and I may not be making sense to you (sorry). But I just wanted to point out that the adjective might be used in different ways than to modify the duration of something.

Mike

[Guest]

I disagree. If that were the case, there would be no reason God would or could raise that dead and then judge them, because they would have already paid for their sin by death. If you go to court and pay your fine, they aren't going to judge you after you have made restitution. Yet we are told we are going to be judged by what we have done in the body.

Sean,

There is one problem with this logic. Christians are going to be judged too. Paul says.....

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

So, if christians will be judged, who have received remission of sins, then why not the unjust who have made restitution through death?

Todd

[Guest]

There is one problem with this logic. Christians are going to be judged too. Paul says.....

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

So, if christians will be judged, who have received remission of sins, then why not the unjust who have made restitution through death?

Todd

People have this misconception that judgment is where God either sends us to heaven or to hell. But, to me, that is not what will happen. Judgment is where Christ rewards the faithful with heavenly blessings by degrees. And where the degree of torture of the unfaithful is determined. To me, Judgment is an evaluation and then a coresponding reward. After this, they go to one place or the other.

The greek translated as "everlasting destruction" (NOT IN ALL BIBLES BTW) in the KJV is "kolasin aionion". Kolasin can mean punishment or chastening or correction or cutting off as in pruning. Aionion is the adjective form of aion and can mean ages upon ages or age abiding or indeterminate period of time.

“Cutting off” is exactly what I believe will happen. Yes, the period will be “unstated” because hell is not eternal. Hell is “everlasting.” <b>There is a fundamental difference!</b> “Unstated” is another interpretation and that fits in perfectly with “everlasting” because we do not know when the ending point is because hell goes “ages upon ages” without end just like “aion” means.

BTW regarding what Judgement Day is like is described in Isaiah 26.8-9
"When thy judgements are in the earth the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn righteousness."

Brother, I still don’t see how you connect any of these verses to unbelievers or heaven/hell. Yes God’s judgment will impact us and no doubt when people see God’s mighty works they will learn righteousness. Where does God ever mention heaven/hell in Isaiah 26:8-9? Where does He ever mention believers/unbelievers? I don’t see a parallel at all.

We can't go before God claiming Christ paid our sins, but look here God at what great stuff I did.

<b>That is the my main contention why purgatory is false teaching.</b> If we accept the payment Christ made on the cross for our sin, <b>all sin</b> as stated by scripture, <b>then there is nothing to pay for in purgatory</b>. Our good works are only done by Him and the leading of the Holy Spirit, working through us.

The cross and forgiveness of all of your sin is God's provision, that we know for a fact, it is in scripture.

Again, if you do not believe your spirit is perfect and acceptable to God, because of Christ, and if you do not believe Christ's blood is able to cleanse us of all unrighteousness then a foundational facet is missing from your theology.

Was not Christ's punishment on the cross for our sins enough? If so, then why purgatory? If the slate is wiped clean, there is not a blemish on our record how, tell me how can punishment be necessary? Do we need to help Christ out, because He didn’t get it all straight? Was He not sufficient? Do we need to help Him out a bit?

The only way punishment is necessary is if you do not believe Christ's punishment is enough. To say that Christ’s punishment is not sufficient is to eviscerate the very heart right out of the New Testament Gospel.

1 Cor 15:53-54:

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

1 Cor15:47-49:

”The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”

The point here is, yes, while in this body we sin and struggle. Once death is upon us and we are freed of the snares of this world, then our mind and emotions are free from deceit. No longer can the devil deceive us, we can clearly see who Christ is with no clouding or misrepresentation. Then, we can put on imperishable, and fully bear the likeness of the Man from heaven.

No one said God is not powerful enough it's just He has his ways and timetables of doing things and apparently they take time.

By saying that after death we must do "time in purgatory" is an audacious affront to what Christ has done for us via his death on the cross. By saying that after death we must do "time in purgatory," you are in essence, denying Christ’s sufficiency. We are trying to pay for the misdeeds of the flesh which is totally unnecessary, He has done so, or at least if you accept Him and what He accomplished on the cross.

Nowhere in the Bible does God ever say that we have to “pay” for our sins ourselves.

But Paul said "Christ WILL BE PREACHED TO EVERY MAN IN DUE TIME" Where and when will this be? Answer in the LOF.

I see no biblical basis for that statement. Consider this verse:

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” – Rev. 20:14-15

<b>Notice the phrase “second death.” After this verse, no reference is made to a “second” spiritual birth afterwards!</b> From this I conclude that after this “second death” it’s all over. Nothing you do now can change that fact that you are in the Lake of Fire. You were given plenty of warning, as we continually read in Revelation. God is merciful and merciful beyond His obligation. Yet there comes a time when God ends his mercy. God is “longsuffering” meaning He has a limit. Anything else is narcissistic rationalization.

The fundamental Purgatory error is the transference of this image, this imaginary doctrine, into the eternal realms. Nowhere do we sin Christ “purging” us of sin in eternal realms. <b>Purgatory is the here and now: Today is the day of damnation, today the day of cleansing, today the day of salvation. Christ “purges” us of our sin today!</b> This doctrine negates the atonement, empties the gospel, encourages antinomianism, and institutionalizes a system of works..

…they have a choice since i'm sure God at some point would destroy the ungodly since evil will be detroyed in the universe eventually.

Please explain.

[Guest]

Was not Christ's punishment on the cross for our sins enough? If so, then why purgatory? If the slate is wiped clean, there is not a blemish on our record how, tell me how can punishment be necessary? Do we need to help Christ out, because He didn’t get it all straight? Was He not sufficient? Do we need to help Him out a bit?

The only way punishment is necessary is if you do not believe Christ's punishment is enough. To say that Christ’s punishment is not sufficient is to eviscerate the very heart right out of the New Testament Gospel.

You seem to be going right off the end of a limb here, Loaves.

There is no doubt that servants (or slaves) of Christ will have to be corrected, too. It's only when we think that Jesus died primarily to get us forgiven and to "take our punishment for us on the cross" that we imagine that there is no need for correction. God isn't interested in merely "making a way for us to get to heaven" and go scott free concerning the condition of our hearts.

Indeed, Jesus gave a parable about three servants (or slaves) all of which needed correction.

1. One didn't know his master's will, but did things that deserved a beating. He will receive a light beating when the master returns.

2. Another knew his master's will, but didn't act according to his will. He will receive a severe beating.

3. Yet another didn't really believe his master would return, so began to abuse his fellow servants. He will be cast out with the unbelievers.

"You also must be ready; for the Son of man is coming at an unexpected hour."

Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?"

And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master when he comes will find so doing. Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will punish him, and put him with the unfaithful.

And that servant who knew his master’s will, but did not make ready or act according to his will, shall receive a severe beating.

But he who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, shall receive a light beating. Luke 12: 40-48 RSV

[Guest]

There is one problem with this logic. Christians are going to be judged too. Paul says.....

2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

So, if christians will be judged, who have received remission of sins, then why not the unjust who have made restitution through death?

Todd

People have this misconception that judgment is where God either sends us to heaven or to hell. But, to me, that is not what will happen. Judgment is where Christ rewards the faithful with heavenly blessings by degrees. And where the degree of torture of the unfaithful is determined. To me, Judgment is an evaluation and then a coresponding reward. After this, they go to one place or the other.

Loaves,

You seem to be saying that the "faithful" receive only rewards and the unfaithful receive only torture. I am not so sure that is the case. The verse does not say that at all. The "faithful," as you have said yourself, do not do all good, neither do the unfaithful do all bad. I have heard it said that when christians are judged God will only see Christ's righteousness. The verse doesn't say that or even imply it.

Todd

[Guest]

STEVE7150 wrote:
BTW regarding what Judgement Day is like is described in Isaiah 26.8-9
"When thy judgements are in the earth the INHABITANTS OF THE WORLD will learn righteousness."


Brother, I still don’t see how you connect any of these verses to unbelievers or heaven/hell. Yes God’s judgment will impact us and no doubt when people see God’s mighty works they will learn righteousness. Where does God ever mention heaven/hell in Isaiah 26:8-9? Where does He ever mention believers/unbelievers? I don’t see a parallel at all.


This is a desription of judgement day and says ALL the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. All the inhabitants include unbelievers who will learn righteousness in the LOF where Christ sends them on the last day or judgement day.
They still must bow the knee to Christ and truely make him their Lord as well as repent and God can not be fooled by falsehoods.
Rather then diminish Christ's sacrifice i see it as doing the opposite which is glorifying what He did through MERCY not by torturing people, FOR WHAT DID CHRIST SAY?


DID HE SAY BLESSED ARE THE TORTURERS or did He say "Blessed are the merciful FOR THEY WILL RECEIVE MERCY."
He wants us to be LIKE HIM so if He tells us to be merciful THAT MEANS HE IS MERCIFUL.