Zechariah 14:3

End Times
User avatar
thrombomodulin
Posts: 430
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Zechariah 14:3

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:49 pm

This passage says . How can the preterist view the Lord fighting the nations as being fulfilled? God did not destroy the Roman army in 70 AD.
Thanks
Pete

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3340
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by steve » Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:22 pm

This is not an easy question to answer. The statement seems out of place in the midst of this description of the fall of Jerusalem. There are two considerations, however, that may factor into an answer. First, the word "then," at the beginning of verse 3, seems to be supplied by the translators, and does not appear to be in the Hebrew text.

Perhaps it is not describing an action in its chronological place, but as an aside. That is, the nations are destroying Jerusalem (AD 70), but God will (eventually) turn His efforts upon them and do battle against them. This could refer to the later judgment on the Roman Empire when it fell.

It is possible, also, that the Lord's doing battle against the Roman Empire is to be seen in terms of spiritual battle, by which He, through the Gospel, conquered pagan Rome. The kingdom of God's conquest of the nations, in Nebuchadnezzar's dream (Daniel 2) similarly refers to the Gospel's conquests globally, though it is described as if it is destruction of those kingdoms.

In either case, the verse could be a parenthetical notice, mentioned prior to its actual chronological relation to the surrounding verses.

User avatar
thrombomodulin
Posts: 430
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by thrombomodulin » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:19 pm

Thanks for your answer. The idea of conquering through the gospel seems attractive given Daniel 2:44.

I am in the process of reading Duncan McKenzie's book "The antichrist and the second coming". He does not explicitly address this question when discussing Zechariah 14 (in Volume 1, chapter 7), however, I believe he would affirm that Christ waged war immediately after Titus conquered Jerusalem against the demonic powers that operated through Titus and other earthly rulers - that spiritual battle occurred and is predicted here in Zechariah 14:3. Duncan elsewhere uses either a spiritual or physical fulfillment where convenient to resolve similar difficulties. That is to say some prophecies speak not about Titus but rather the demonic power working through him. What is your opinion of this approach?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4910
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:39 pm

Steve wrote:First, the word "then," at the beginning of verse 3, seems to be supplied by the translators, and does not appear to be in the Hebrew text.
In the Septuagint text (the text that the New Testament writers seem to have used) the sentence doesn't being with "then" either. It begins with "and." Would that make any difference to your understanding?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3340
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by steve » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:20 pm

Would that make any difference to your understanding?
No, it would just be introducing new information, but not specifying chronological sequence.

User avatar
Biblegate
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:07 pm

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by Biblegate » Thu Dec 22, 2016 12:25 am

Here's the link to the video of Steve's 2015 lecture on Zechariah 14:1-5

https://youtu.be/-8bljNZN38Y

And here's the link to the audio

http://www.thenarrowpath.com/Audio_Teac ... 1-14.5.mp3

TruthInLove
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:35 am

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by TruthInLove » Thu Dec 22, 2016 3:55 am

Hi thrombomodulin,

I personally don't believe that Jerusalem in this passage refers to earthly Jerusalem or exclusively to the events surrounding 70 A.D. For starters, Zechariah 14:14 tells us that the battle and plague will result in the collecting of the "wealth of all the surrounding nations" with "great quantities of gold and silver and clothing." Compare this to Isaiah 60:5; 66:12. I think there is adequate biblical justification for understanding this gathering of wealth as references to people becoming disciples of Christ, especially Gentiles. Even Judah is fighting at Jerusalem, suggesting that the earthly Jerusalem is not what is meant by "Jerusalem" in this context.

The nature of this fighting would also seem to be spiritual. Compare to verses like Revelation 19:15,21; Isaiah 11:4; Hebrews 4:12-13; Isaiah 49:1-2; Hosea 6:5; Ephesians 6:17; Luke 2:34-35; Matthew 10:34.

Further, while the plague and battle sound like a judgement on God's enemies, I think it can be shown quite convincingly that the plague of rotting flesh, eyes, and tongues of the cattle and people may actually be Hebrew word-plays that serve as allusions to the sanctification made possible through Christ.

I'd also point out that there are striking parallels between this portion of Zechariah, David and Zadok's flight from Absalom, the prediction and events of King Josiah's advent, God's glory leaving and returning to the temple in Ezekiel, and the priesthood of Melchizedek.

Much more could be said on each of these subjects. If anyone is interested in hearing more details on this view, I'd be happy to elaborate.
thrombomodulin wrote:The idea of conquering through the gospel seems attractive given Daniel 2:44.
I would respectfully disagree with Steve and others who see this portion of Daniel as a reference to a period of Roman domination. Despite being a minority view, I am convinced that the biblical evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that Daniel's 4th kingdom was the ancient Greek Empire and that ancient Rome is not a primary focus of Daniel, although it is mentioned a handful of times. I'd also be willing to explore this with anyone who may be interested.

User avatar
thrombomodulin
Posts: 430
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 6:59 am

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by thrombomodulin » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:17 am

TruthInLove,

Thanks for your reply.
TruthInLove wrote: I think there is adequate biblical justification for understanding this gathering of wealth as references to people becoming disciples of Christ, especially Gentiles.
I agree.
TruthInLove wrote: The nature of this fighting would also seem to be spiritual...
The abrupt transition from understanding "the nations" in verse 2 as being about the Roman army in a physical war during 70 AD, to "those nations" being about a spiritual war, that extends to modern times, is somewhat difficult to accept - but nonetheless I agree it this could be the correct interpretation.
TruthInLove wrote:
thrombomodulin wrote:The idea of conquering through the gospel seems attractive given Daniel 2:44.
I would respectfully disagree with Steve and others who see this portion of Daniel as a reference to a period of Roman domination.
Despite being a minority view, I am convinced that the biblical evidence overwhelmingly supports the idea that Daniel's 4th kingdom was the ancient Greek Empire and that ancient Rome is not a primary focus of Daniel, although it is mentioned a handful of times. I'd also be willing to explore this with anyone who may be interested.
I have only been exposed to the idea that it Daniel's 4th kingdom is the Roman empire. I am interested in learning about your view that it is not, can you please elaborate?

Thanks,
Pete

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by dwilkins » Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:58 pm

Both of Duncan's books are very good. I think you'll get a lot from them. They helped close the loop for me on the Titus vs. Nero issue. In the end, it's spiritual powers that are judged.

As far as Zechariah 14 goes, if we are going to try to interpret things literally, keep in mind that you have to combine not only the idea of his feet landing and splitting the mountain, but him riding a horse (so his feet aren't on the ground) in Rev. 19, him walking in from Edom in Isaiah 62, and the description in Acts 1 of the ascension happening a ways east of the Mount of Olives (so, he didn't ascend from the Mount of Olives). I propose that it's impossible to take all of these data points literally. I think hyperbolic or spiritual answers are the only options. Given David's description his delivery from Saul in 2nd Samuel 22 (where extremely hyperbolic language was used to describe a historically mundane event), I tend to see it as a combination.

Doug

TruthInLove
Posts: 100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2014 12:35 am

Re: Zechariah 14:3

Post by TruthInLove » Sat Dec 24, 2016 1:41 am

thrombomodulin wrote:TruthInLove,
TruthInLove wrote: The nature of this fighting would also seem to be spiritual...
The abrupt transition from understanding "the nations" in verse 2 as being about the Roman army in a physical war during 70 AD, to "those nations" being about a spiritual war, that extends to modern times, is somewhat difficult to accept - but nonetheless I agree it this could be the correct interpretation.
I'm not convinced "the nations" in verse 2 is exclusively about the war of 70 A.D. There, I think Jerusalem is God's spiritual Jerusalem as well. While I'm sure the war crimes committed against earthly Jerusalem in the judgement of 70 A.D. fit that description, I think true, spiritual Jerusalem suffered them first in the form of persecution on through and even beyond 70 A.D. I don't think these are necessarily to be viewed as judgements on an apostate state. They are crimes committed against God's persecuted bride. God is addressing the church in the last few verses of Zec. 13 and later in chapter 14 when he speaks of splitting the Mount of Olives for their escape. I see no clear indication that the Jerusalem of verse 2 must be viewed as anything other than spiritual Jerusalem.
thrombomodulin wrote: I have only been exposed to the idea that it Daniel's 4th kingdom is the Roman empire. I am interested in learning about your view that it is not, can you please elaborate?
Happy to. Rather than cluttering up the discussion on Zechariah though, I posted a response here in a thread I had started quite some time ago.

Post Reply

Return to “Eschatology”