1 Corinthians 2:14

[darinhouston]

Sorry Darin, I don't think you are being honest here. I think you know exactly what I mean by supremely good. And that loving God is a supremely good act. And for reason I stated above, it certainly does include loving God. Loving God is the highest good - the first greatest command. What is required of us.

Anyway my syllogism stands. I will let the readers decide. You may have the last word.

This is unfortunately a fairly typical resolution. Your syllogism only stands because you failed to defend the fundamental premise.

[Paidion]

Seer, would merely having a desire for God be "a supremely good act" worthy of merit?

Ben Girod in his book Baptized by Fire .... the Gethsemane Way made this statement which seems to be relevant to the discussion:

An unbeliever cannot have faith. Therefore, one does not receive the new birth through faith. New birth comes because an unbeliever desires to know God, and in response to that desire, Jesus reveals Himself to the unbeliever through the Holy Spirit. As the unbeliever sees the revealed Savior and comes to faith, his heart is filled with great rejoicing and he is born again.

From Baptized by Fire .... the Gethsemane Way, page 54

[seer]

Sorry Darin, I don't think you are being honest here. I think you know exactly what I mean by supremely good. And that loving God is a supremely good act. And for reason I stated above, it certainly does include loving God. Loving God is the highest good - the first greatest command. What is required of us.

Anyway my syllogism stands. I will let the readers decide. You may have the last word.

This is unfortunately a fairly typical resolution. Your syllogism only stands because you failed to defend the fundamental premise.

Darin, if you don't know what a supreme good is, then what can I say? The greatest command is to love God. That is a supreme good, the second great command is to love your neighbor that is also a supreme good. Both are worthy of merit - if you do not think so then tell me why. Then show me a human act that is worthy of merit. Because if loving God and neighbor are not acts worthy of merit - then no act is worthy of merit...

[darinhouston]

Darin, if you don't know what a supreme good is, then what can I say? The greatest command is to love God. That is a supreme good, the second great command is to love your neighbor that is also a supreme good. Both are worthy of merit - if you do not think so then tell me why. Then show me a human act that is worthy of merit. Because if loving God and neighbor are not acts worthy of merit - then no act is worthy of merit...

Boy, had to leave Houston due to the storm -- made it to San Antonio and would ask for prayers for all in the area.

Now, what's confusing to me is that if "supreme good" is equated with "something of merit," then love and faith are of merit, which is counter to scripture. If you just mean "having some degree of goodness," then I don't have a problem with that unless you deny the ability for man to do ANYTHING good in any degree on one's own. But, you still keep reverting to "loving God" instead of the premise we were discussing with respect to "choosing to follow God." If we acknowledge that the ability to love God and have Faith comes directly from God following the mere "choice," we're left with the question as to whether a simple choice can be a supreme good.

Also, if supreme goods (being meritorious) are things only God can do (alone) through us (since man cannot do such meritorious things), how is it that you can love your neighbor and suggest that it is worthy of merit?

I just don't see your logic if you insist that a mere choice has some divine meritorious goodness to it associated with the "chooser." Also, your just saying so doesn't show scripture to support that a choice has merit when in fact scripture says just the opposite (at least with respect to Faith).

[Sean]

Darin, if you don't know what a supreme good is, then what can I say? The greatest command is to love God. That is a supreme good, the second great command is to love your neighbor that is also a supreme good. Both are worthy of merit - if you do not think so then tell me why. Then show me a human act that is worthy of merit. Because if loving God and neighbor are not acts worthy of merit - then no act is worthy of merit...

I don't see how you are equating a choice man makes with "supreme good". I asked this before but I don't remember you answering. If Abraham believed God, and belief is in and of itself a righteous act then why did God credit Abraham's belief as if it were righteousness? It seems that one is accounted righteous when he believes, not the other way around.

Also, have you considered this passage:

Luke 17:7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

Even if I could believe and do righteous acts would I think this is worthy of commendation? Jesus seems to say no.

[seer]

Darin, if you don't know what a supreme good is, then what can I say? The greatest command is to love God. That is a supreme good, the second great command is to love your neighbor that is also a supreme good. Both are worthy of merit - if you do not think so then tell me why. Then show me a human act that is worthy of merit. Because if loving God and neighbor are not acts worthy of merit - then no act is worthy of merit...

I don't see how you are equating a choice man makes with "supreme good". I asked this before but I don't remember you answering. If Abraham believed God, and belief is in and of itself a righteous act then why did God credit Abraham's belief as if it were righteousness? It seems that one is accounted righteous when he believes, not the other way around.

Also, have you considered this passage:

Luke 17:7 And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come at once and sit down to eat’? 8 But will he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink’? 9 Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, ‘We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.’”

Even if I could believe and do righteous acts would I think this is worthy of commendation? Jesus seems to say no.

Ok, so nothing we do is worthy of merit? Was Abraham being circumcised worthy of merit? After all it was commanded of of him. I'm not sure what your point is about Abraham - reword it please...

BTW Stay safe Sean...

[seer]

Darin, if you don't know what a supreme good is, then what can I say? The greatest command is to love God. That is a supreme good, the second great command is to love your neighbor that is also a supreme good. Both are worthy of merit - if you do not think so then tell me why. Then show me a human act that is worthy of merit. Because if loving God and neighbor are not acts worthy of merit - then no act is worthy of merit...

Boy, had to leave Houston due to the storm -- made it to San Antonio and would ask for prayers for all in the area.

Now, what's confusing to me is that if "supreme good" is equated with "something of merit," then love and faith are of merit, which is counter to scripture. If you just mean "having some degree of goodness," then I don't have a problem with that unless you deny the ability for man to do ANYTHING good in any degree on one's own. But, you still keep reverting to "loving God" instead of the premise we were discussing with respect to "choosing to follow God." If we acknowledge that the ability to love God and have Faith comes directly from God following the mere "choice," we're left with the question as to whether a simple choice can be a supreme good.

Also, if supreme goods (being meritorious) are things only God can do (alone) through us (since man cannot do such meritorious things), how is it that you can love your neighbor and suggest that it is worthy of merit?

I just don't see your logic if you insist that a mere choice has some divine meritorious goodness to it associated with the "chooser." Also, your just saying so doesn't show scripture to support that a choice has merit when in fact scripture says just the opposite (at least with respect to Faith).

Sean the "simple" choice here includes loving God. Like I said the devils believe in God. How is our belief different? We loved and trust God. And that is not that simple. That is why no one here could really give a rational reason as to why they believed the Gospel and loved the Christ therein, while their lost neighbor rejected both.

I don't think loving your neighbor is worthy of merit. Because it is ALL of God. The fruit of His Spirit flowing through us - the Spirit gives life but the flesh is of no profit. I'm trying to find out what you guys would consider a worthy act. You are the Arminians remember...

[darinhouston]

Sean the "simple" choice here includes loving God. Like I said the devils believe in God. How is our belief different? We loved and trust God. And that is not that simple. That is why no one here could really give a rational reason as to why they believed the Gospel and loved the Christ therein, while their lost neighbor rejected both.

I don't think loving your neighbor is worthy of merit. Because it is ALL of God. The fruit of His Spirit flowing through us - the Spirit gives life but the flesh is of no profit. I'm trying to find out what you guys would consider a worthy act. You are the Arminians remember...

I believe you were replying to my post, not Sean's, but a couple of points in response:

(1) You keep equating choice with loving God. Why do you insist that a "simple" choice includes loving God? In my paradigm, loving God is a result of the choice, but not included in the choice. I choose to follow God and He empowers me to love Him.
(2) Yes, devils may believe in God, but further to (1) above, I'm not talking about "belief," but a "choice" to follow Him as our Lord based on what we do believe about Him. I think belief is a function of the intellect, choice is a function of the will, love is a function of the heart, and faith is a function of the spirit. They're all different and you can't keep equating or conflating them to suit your critique when it's not our position your critiquing.
(3) You say loving your neighbor is not worthy of merit, but you used it as an example of a "supreme good" and you equated that with loving God, and then used that as a proof that loving God is something to boast in of us. You can't have it both ways.
(4) You want to know what we think is a "worthy act." Again, we need to define our theological terms if we are going to have a theological discussion. Loose language is fine for a sunday school lesson, but you're trying to critique our theology, so we can't be so loose. So, here's a new term. I'm happy to explain (as will I hope others in the event I'm sloppy or in need of correction myself), but what do you mean by "worthy?" Worthy of what? Entering the Kingdom of God? Worthy of blessings from God? Rewards in Heaven?

[seer]

(1) You keep equating choice with loving God. Why do you insist that a "simple" choice includes loving God? In my paradigm, loving God is a result of the choice, but not included in the choice. I choose to follow God and He empowers me to love Him.

Because following God is loving God. Again Darin, the devils believe in God - but they hate God. We follow God because we love Him. These things can not be separated.

(2) Yes, devils may believe in God, but further to (1) above, I'm not talking about "belief," but a "choice" to follow Him as our Lord based on what we do believe about Him. I think belief is a function of the intellect, choice is a function of the will, love is a function of the heart, and faith is a function of the spirit. They're all different and you can't keep equating or conflating them to suit your critique when it's not our position your critiquing.

And you can not keep separating faith and love. If your faith is not one that loves God then it is not biblical faith - it is the faith of devils.

(3) You say loving your neighbor is not worthy of merit, but you used it as an example of a "supreme good" and you equated that with loving God, and then used that as a proof that loving God is something to boast in of us. You can't have it both ways.

Yes I can. Since I believe all my good acts are the result God's life flowing through me. You believe that YOU are making these good choices. That your decisions (not God's) are the final causes in these matters. I don't.

(4) You want to know what we think is a "worthy act." Again, we need to define our theological terms if we are going to have a theological discussion. Loose language is fine for a sunday school lesson, but you're trying to critique our theology, so we can't be so loose. So, here's a new term. I'm happy to explain (as will I hope others in the event I'm sloppy or in need of correction myself), but what do you mean by "worthy?" Worthy of what? Entering the Kingdom of God? Worthy of blessings from God? Rewards in Heaven?

No Darin, I want to know what you consider a worthy act. Worthy in the sight of God or in the sight of our fellow man or both.

[darinhouston]

(4) You want to know what we think is a "worthy act." Again, we need to define our theological terms if we are going to have a theological discussion. Loose language is fine for a sunday school lesson, but you're trying to critique our theology, so we can't be so loose. So, here's a new term. I'm happy to explain (as will I hope others in the event I'm sloppy or in need of correction myself), but what do you mean by "worthy?" Worthy of what? Entering the Kingdom of God? Worthy of blessings from God? Rewards in Heaven?

No Darin, I want to know what you consider a worthy act. Worthy in the sight of God or in the sight of our fellow man or both.

I think we must be on a different page here -- I hate to just go back and forth, but I really do still need to know what you mean by "worthy" to answer that question. Even if I say we're talking about "worthy in the sight of God," we're still left with "worthy of what."