The Epistles

[Allyn]

The Book of Romans

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(written 58 AD+/-)

(Romans 2:5-8) 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Again compare the above verse to the following verses

(2 Corinthians 5:10) 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

(Daniel 12:2) 2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

(Matthew 16:27-28) "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS. "Truly I say to you (the disciples), there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Again, they are all speaking of the judgment that accompanies the second coming that would happen in that generation.

(Romans 8:23-25) 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, eagerly fwith perseverance we wait or it.

(Romans 13:12) 12 The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light.

[Allyn]

The year is 60AD

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All things that Christ our Lord spoke of are about to be shown. The Church was within reach of the time we now know occurred from AD67-70. The warnings and the encouragement is racheting up and when you read the next few postings you may even sense the same urgency that our early brothers and sisters must have felt.

[Allyn]

The Book of James

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(written 60-62 AD+/-)

(James 5:7-9) 7 Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Two times James tell his 1st century audience to be patient as they wait for the coming of the Lord. How much stronger and clearer could the words of scripture be? Christ said he would return in that first century generation, and now, just a handful of years before the destruction of Jerusalem, and the fulfillment of the promises that accompany it, and James uses phrases like "be patient UNTIL THE COMING of the Lord" and "for the coming of the lord is NEAR" and stronger still, "the Judge is standing RIGHT AT THE DOOR". James is telling these Christians nothing more than what Christ himself prophesied, and what Paul had been telling his churches. Unless you strip away audience relevance, you must concede that James believed in a first century second coming and that is why he taught it to his churches.

[Mellontes]

allyn wrote:

why in the world would Paul take the time to tell first century believers details about all the things that first must happen in the world before the second coming of Christ if that second coming was nowhere near, and the events he was talking about didn't impact them at all?

my answer: because Paul didnt know for certain and perhaps assumed wrongly that his return was right around the corner.

TK

TK, Please excuse me for entering in upon a conversation that was not mine originally.

So often I hear about how Apostles could have been mistaken in this or were possibly incorrect in that. If the Apostles, when handing out doctrine in their epistles were wrong about anything, then what kind of faith do we have? This is where inspiration and authority of God's Word is a must, no-compromise situation. What if Jesus was wrong in anything he said? What is the difference? Our faith is made completely void and we may as well join the Mormons.

In speaking upon future events such as the day of the Lord (as do the Thessalonian epistles) would it not be considered that Paul's testimony of these things are true? Did he have the Holy Spirit or not? Was not one function of the Holy Spirit to ensure correctness of things to come?

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

For us to even consider for but the smallest amount of time that any one of the inspired individuals was in error (even the most miniscule error) is a slippery slope indeed and one I will not entertain. This is the seriousness of the matter

[Mellontes]

Allyn wrote:

Today, in the minds of most professing Christians, we think that the "Day of the Lord" will be a world-wide earth burning, cataclysmic experience. If that is true, and the Thessalonians had the same understanding of the nature of that day as we do, how could the Thessalonians have thought they missed it?

because they were being deceived by false teachers. It WILL be an earth burning , cataclysmic experience, but they were deceived into forgetting that part.

TK

TK, Please tell me how the false teachers could convince these Thessalonians that the cataclysmic, planetary destruction was not really going on. The stars falling to earth and disintegrating the planet would just be something forgotten - at least according to your logic. You seem to be more interested in defending a theological paradigm that trying to discern what the Scriptures have to say. These same verses apply to the dispensationalists who believe in a rapture 7 years prior to these cataclysmic events. If they (the dispies) believe like you TK, how could they "forget" about not being raptured away? How could they "forget" that Paul had not been raptured away either? Do you see how this knind of thinking is impossible? I hope so.

[TK]

mellontes-

you may have misunderstood me. when i said they "forgot" the part about the "end" coming with cataclysmic events, i did not mean that they literally "forgot." I mean that the deceivers were able to convince them that perhaps christ had already come, DESPITE the fact that the earth didnt burn up, etc. they were deceived into thinking that Christ could have come w/o the accompanying destruction.

i think Paul was trying to remind them about what had to happen before Christ came back, and not to be swayed into thinking that it had already occurred.

In regard to my statement about Paul being "wrong"-- i really dont think Paul was wrong. I simply dont read his statements to REQUIRE that he was asserting that Christ would return very soon. Since I do not believe Christ's second coming already occurred, then from my standpoint there are 2 options: 1) if Paul really really was convinced that Christ would return very quickly, then he was wrong, or 2) Paul's statements dont necessitate the conclusion that he really really believed this. Personally, I choose #2.

TK

[Allyn]

The Book of Philippians

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(written 62 AD+/-)

(Philippians 1:6) 6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

(Philippians 1:9-10) 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;

(Philippians 2:16) 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.

(Philippians 3:20-21) 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

(Philippians 4:5) 5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Notice the extreme wording - AT HAND!!! What is at hand? The day of Christ.

[Mellontes]

mellontes-

you may have misunderstood me. when i said they "forgot" the part about the "end" coming with cataclysmic events, i did not mean that they literally "forgot." I mean that the deceivers were able to convince them that perhaps christ had already come, DESPITE the fact that the earth didnt burn up, etc. they were deceived into thinking that Christ could have come w/o the accompanying destruction.

i think Paul was trying to remind them about what had to happen before Christ came back, and not to be swayed into thinking that it had already occurred.

In regard to my statement about Paul being "wrong"-- i really dont think Paul was wrong. I simply dont read his statements to REQUIRE that he was asserting that Christ would return very soon. Since I do not believe Christ's second coming already occurred, then from my standpoint there are 2 options: 1) if Paul really really was convinced that Christ would return very quickly, then he was wrong, or 2) Paul's statements dont necessitate the conclusion that he really really believed this. Personally, I choose #2.

TK

Don't forget option #3 - Your paradigm could be wrong.

You are using your own "theological lens" to do the interpreting. If Scripture seems to disagree with what we presently believe, we are not to assume that Scripture meant something else, but we are to "adjust" our theology accordingly. I believe "soon" actually means soon. I also believe "shortly" means shortly. And the great thing about all these time statements (which number more than statements for deity) is that each Greek word used for these "time" words can be shown its identical usage elsewhere - and not one of them even hints at a 2,000 year (and ticking) delay. When the author of Hebrews said Christ would come "in a very little while" (Actually the Greek says "very, very little") then I believe him. He also said that HE (Christ) "would not tarry" and I believe him here too (Hebrews 10:37). This was the "day approaching" from Hebrews 10:25. And if not THE day, then what day were these 1st century Hebrew Christians referring to? These were times of Jewish persecution and they needed to assemble often to encourage each other as the time drew closer and closer.

What stops most people (as it did for me for a while) from letting the pureness of the Scripture speak just as it was presented to the original hearers is because their NATURE of the second appearing is in error. The NT's time statements clearly indicate this as a time in their 1st century generation just as Christ said in Mt 24:34. And if the time statements (which are pretty straight forward if you will allow them to be) are true (and they are because the Apostles or Jesus didn't lie) then rest assurred that the NATURE has been mistaken.

Most people expect a physical, bodily return of the Lord. But the OT never represents a day of the LORD in such "physical" terms. Always it was an act of "nature" or other individuals that God used to bring judgement. Such as the Medes in Isaiah 13:17 who came upon Babylon in their day of the LORD (Isaiah 13:6). Note that this destruction "it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty" is a simile usage referring to the LORD. The actual judgment happened at the hands of the Medes but it was a destruction "AS" by the LORD.

And since Jesus was to come "in the glory of the Father" (Mt 16:27) should we expect anything different to His already established pattern? And if so, where does Jesus or any of his Apostles let the 1st century Christians (or us) in on their little secret?

Many people base their understanding of the Lord's return from Acts 1:9. But if anything, it supports the OT pattern and presence of His coming. Revelation 1:7 is also used to support a physical view because people are believed to one day "see" him.

Revelation 1:7 – Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Behold, he cometh with clouds – This is in accordance with previous days of the Lord and with judgment language (Jer 4:13, Dan 7:13, Joel 2:2, Nahum 1:3, Zeph 1:15, Mt 24:30. Mt 26:64, Mk 13:26, Mk 14:62, Is 19:1, Ez 1:28, Ez 10:4. Lk 21:27, Rev 14:14, Rev 14:15, Rev 14:16). You can use InstaVerse to look up the verses just by hovering the mouse over the reference - http://www.instaverse.com, a very valuable online tool!

And every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him – It is plain enough to me to realize that those who pierced Him (unbelieving Jews who stirred up the Romans through their lies – “Crucify Him, crucify Him”) would be able to perceive His coming in judgment upon them. This 1st century setting is also realized by the time statements of the Apostle John (things which must shortly come to pass, the time is at hand – Rev 1:1, Rev 1:3, Rev 22:6, Rev 22:10)

and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him – This is not referring to all the people of planet earth. It is referring (specifically) to the Jewish “tribes” of the “land” – get out your Strong's concordance and do some Greek research here.

Many have often spoken about the soon, quickly, at hand, near, nigh, shortly texts that Jesus and all His apostles used in reference to Christ’s coming. It was the individuals of the first century that would “see” His coming.

In what manner did Christ leave at His ascension?

Acts 1:9 – And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

A CLOUD received Him so that He was no longer visible. The angels who stood by the apostles said “this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.”

It never has been the manner in which He left, but in the manner in which he entered heaven – and that was in a cloud. This fits perfectly with the pattern and presence of previous days of the Lord.

Because of what I will say next perhaps you will say He comes with a “glorified body.” When he appeared to Cleopas and the other individual on the road to Emmaus they were not able to recognize Jesus at first (Luke 24:31) even though they had walked a considerable distance with Him. Then there is the time he appeared suddenly in the midst of his disciples when the doors were shut (John 20:26). All of these instances are not characteristic of a physical body but are more characteristic of angels. Should you say it was His “glorified body,” please understand there are no verses that mention a “glorified body.” Jesus will be glorified but that does not indicate a state of his body. I will need Scripture for this view if you choose to represent it.

So, do you “see” what I mean here? And do you “see” what I meant by my last interrogative sentence? I really and truly hope so.

Here is an excellent Internet video on "Coming in the glory of the Father." It really expresses the nature of His second appearing. You will need your Bible close at hand with rapid fingers. Here is the video link http://www.thereignofchrist.com/index.p ... Itemid=353. To avoid all the introductory preamble, start it at the 7 minute 25 second mark.

Blessings, Mellontes

[Allyn]

Excellent, Ted! Thanks

[Allyn]

The Book of Ephesians

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(written 63 AD+/-)

(Ephesians 1:21) 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.

The word "come" at the end of verse 21 is again the Greek word "mello". This passage should read, "not only in this age but also in the one about to come".

(Ephesians 4:30) 30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

When was this promised redemption to occur? In Luke's version of the Olivet Discourse we are told

(Luke 21:20-28) 20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 "Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 "Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 25 "There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, 26 men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 "Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory. 28 "But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

The promised full and final redemption would be at the time Jerusalem is surrounded and the temple destroyed.