The Trinity and Light

[Jose]

Jose, attacking the trinity does not justify your own belief about Jesus

Paidion's suggestion to say that there is no trinity to attack actually crossed my mind, but I won't say it.

It is one thing to have discussions about God within the context of monotheism, but outside of monotheism you may as well be discussing polytheism or atheism, scripture does not allow for more than one God.

Yes, and I believe that the bible teaches monotheism and that is why I abandoned 40 years of trinitarianism.

You need to first decide if you believe there is one God, or two, or none. (me june 16)

I have always believed that there is only one God, no need for me to make a decision there.

Who and what is Jesus then to you Jose, if he is not God?

I'm pretty sure you've asked me that before, but God revealed to Peter who Jesus is and I believe that. He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Now, back to my original question to you, for which I'm still waiting for an answer. Do you think Jewish children, or any Jew at all, interpreted Deut 6:4 to mean that YHWH is a multi personal God? (Jeopardy music playing)

[dizerner]

Hi Dizerner,

I am sure you are being a bit glib with your comments so as to underscore a point. I do not want to put forth the notion that the apparent foolishness or incomprehensibility of something is what determines it's truthfulness. I know you are vehemently non-Calvinist. I believe you yourself have used expressions implying cruelty or schizophrenia towards a Calvinist God. So there is a place for reasonableness and rationality. I don't think when Paul talked about the foolishness of the cross he meant to imply, "If it's idiotic it must be divine." The foolishness of the good news was also the same good news that stumbled the Jews. It was foolishness to the Greeks because they believed the body was something to escape from and be pure spirit. The resurrection seemed to them foolishness.

My point was, I can accept a person saying that they accept by faith that which they cannot rationally explain. But to say that something can be rationally explained, and then when button-holed by an opposing viewpoint, to then use a cop-out like "it's a mystery", is the "foolishness" that does not betoken truth.

Regards, Brenden.

I meant no sarcasm. I wish sarcasm weren't so common in American culture!

[darinhouston]

You're absolutely right, we should not ever imply the Trinity is any more rational or logical than Christ becoming a man and dying for human sins. That also distresses me when the Bible specifically calls the wisdom of God foolishness to the natural mind.

Where, exactly?.

I think you got that backwards. The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. Maybe you're thinking of the message of the cross, specifically.


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[Jose]

I meant no sarcasm. I wish sarcasm weren't so common in American culture!

It can be overused and mean spirited at times, but it has its place. Paul used it.

[Homer]

To me this is not just some academic exercise but has important practical implications.

1. Jesus agreed that we should worship God alone. If Jesus is not God why do we worship Him? Perhaps Jesus death and resurrection changed that.

Just last Sunday at the close of service the preacher made some remarks prefaced by something like "Thank you all for coming to worship Jesus with us today". No mention of our heavenly Father. This is all to common.

2. We seem to have been instructed to be ready to answer an unbelievers questions. How do we, as monotheists, explain that Jesus is God? Especially when challenged by Jew or Muslim?

[Jose]

To me this is not just some academic exercise but has important practical implications.

1. Jesus agreed that we should worship God alone. If Jesus is not God why do we worship Him? Perhaps Jesus death and resurrection changed that.

There was a lot of discussion about this in January under the trinity topic. Do you recall talks about "proskuneo" and "latreuo?"

Just last Sunday at the close of service the preacher made some remarks prefaced by something like "Thank you all for coming to worship Jesus with us today". No mention of our heavenly Father. This is all to common..

This is very common. Jesus always gave glory to God and pointed to God as the one to whom we should be directing all our devotion, but in practice, Jesus is in the spotlight and God is backstage. For me, a unitarian understanding has resolved that by giving God and Jesus their rightful places.

2. We seem to have been instructed to be ready to answer an unbelievers questions. How do we, as monotheists, explain that Jesus is God? Especially when challenged by Jew or Muslim?

I don't think the mandate to be ready includes the need to explain that Jesus is God. Is there a passage that you believe tells us to do so?

[dizerner]

You're absolutely right, we should not ever imply the Trinity is any more rational or logical than Christ becoming a man and dying for human sins. That also distresses me when the Bible specifically calls the wisdom of God foolishness to the natural mind.

Where, exactly?.

I think you got that backwards. The wisdom of the world is foolishness to God. Maybe you're thinking of the message of the cross, specifically.


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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him
the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message
The message of the cross is called the wisdom of God btw, so....

[TheEditor]

To me this is not just some academic exercise but has important practical implications.

1. Jesus agreed that we should worship God alone. If Jesus is not God why do we worship Him? Perhaps Jesus death and resurrection changed that.

Just last Sunday at the close of service the preacher made some remarks prefaced by something like "Thank you all for coming to worship Jesus with us today". No mention of our heavenly Father. This is all to common.

2. We seem to have been instructed to be ready to answer an unbelievers questions. How do we, as monotheists, explain that Jesus is God? Especially when challenged by Jew or Muslim?

Hi Homer,

I agree. I used to have this conversation alot with people that actually did some reflection on it (back in my JW days). People would say things like "It seems as though Jesus was pointing us to the Father, but I feel as though I can relate to Jesus more," The JWs flipped it on it's head after about 1935, so that they almost exclusively pointed to the Father, Jehovah, and gave short shrift to Christ. That is actually something that they have adjusted in recent years.

But the question still remains. I think Jesus did open the way of to the Father as "Papa" or "Daddy", something that would have been nearly inconceivable prior to his coming. As Mediator, he afforded Christians that intimacy. Jose beat me to it on the previous discussion. I'm not sure if we ever came to any conclusions. I'll have to reread that thread.

Regards, Brenden.

[Homer]

JR has repeatedly brought up the question of who is Lord ,that there is only one Lord. Just last night in studying Romans I came to realize how important JR's question is to the subject of the Trinity.

Consider the following, where Yahweh is unquestionably the Lord (kurios) as He is well over 6,000 times in the LXX

Joel 2:18-32 (NKJV)

18. Then the Lord will be zealous for His land,
And pity His people.
19. The Lord will answer and say to His people,
“Behold, I will send you grain and new wine and oil,
And you will be satisfied by them;
I will no longer make you a reproach among the nations.
20. “But I will remove far from you the northern army,
And will drive him away into a barren and desolate land,
With his face toward the eastern sea
And his back toward the western sea;
His stench will come up,
And his foul odor will rise,
Because he has done monstrous things.”
21. Fear not, O land;
Be glad and rejoice,
For the Lord has done marvelous things!
22. Do not be afraid, you beasts of the field;
For the open pastures are springing up,
And the tree bears its fruit;
The fig tree and the vine yield their strength.
23. Be glad then, you children of Zion,
And rejoice in the Lord your God;
For He has given you the former rain faithfully,
And He will cause the rain to come down for you—
The former rain,
And the latter rain in the first month.
24. The threshing floors shall be full of wheat,
And the vats shall overflow with new wine and oil.
25. “So I will restore to you the years that the swarming locust has eaten,
The crawling locust,
The consuming locust,
And the chewing locust,
My great army which I sent among you.
26. You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied,
And praise the name of the Lord your God,
Who has dealt wondrously with you;
And My people shall never be put to shame.
27. Then you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel:
I am the Lord your God
And there is no other.
My people shall never be put to shame.
28. “And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
29. And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30. “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth:
Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31. The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
32. And it shall come to pass
That whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Shall be saved.
For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance,
As the Lord has said,
Among the remnant whom the Lord calls.

Certainly Paul was well schooled in the Old Testament. Paul applies the words of Joel regarding Yahweh to the Christ, who is also Lord (Kurios):

Romans 10:5-13 (NKJV)

5. For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6. But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7. or, “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8. But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9. that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12. For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

And the scriptures affirm there is only one Lord.

Alford commented:

There is hardly a stronger proof, or one more irrefragable by those who deny the Godhead of our Blessed Lord, of the unhesitating application to Him by the Apostle of the name and attributes of Jehovah.

[Paidion]

Yes, without question "The LORD" was substituted for the Hebrew word "Yahweh" quite early. The writers of the Septuagint were doubtless Hebrews who took seriously the words, "You shall not take the name of Yahweh, your God, in vain." So to make sure they wouldn't do it, they stopped pronouncing the name, and used "The LORD" instead. This resulted in rather odd translation of some OT passages. For example, "My name is "the LORD." (Jer 16:21). "The LORD" is not a name. "Yahweh" IS His name.

I can understand the argument that there is only one Yahweh (in spite of Gen 19:21 where which two different Individuals each of whom is called "Yahweh," one in heaven and the other on earth). But I think it a mistake to affirm "There is only one Lord" on the basis that Yahweh's name was changed to "the LORD."

When the New Testament writers stated that there was only one Lord, they referred to Jesus alone. Indeed, in 1 Corinthians 8:6, when Paul spoke of Jesus as the one Lord, he distinguished Him from the Father:

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.