Hebrews 6:4-6 (Once lost always lost????...surely not!)

[Guest]

Heb 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
(KJV)

This has always been so difficult for me to grasp.
First off I am fully convinced by several passages that salvation can be forfeited. If we do not abide in Christ we can be taken away (John 15), If we deny Him He also will deny us (2 Tim 2) and we can turn from the living God (Hebrews 3) but I also read in Romans 11 if we are removed God is able to graft us back in. The parable of the Prodigal son and the lost coin and lost sheep seem to indicate the possibility of falling from grace and then being re-secured in Christ.

Why does the above passage seem to indicate that if salvation is lost it cannot be regained. Am I reading it wrong, or am I misunderstanding something?

I have come across this here and there and it always makes my ability to assess scripture shut down, because that is what it seems to say, and I realize that it simply can not say that.

I'll be looking forward to comments on this to untangle my mixed up mind - thank you!!

[Guest]

I've heard Steve give a list of some very good possibilities to understanding this verse. I favor the idea that it is so difficult to restore an apostate person who has hardened his heart against what he/she knows to be the truth that it becomes almost impossible to do. In other words, the author is using hyperbole. But we know with God, all things are possible and He can put the right pressure on a person to turn back.

Matt 19:25-26
"Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
NKJV

This verse is talking about a "rich man" entering the kingdom, but I think the same principle can also be applied here in Hebrews 6.

However we understand the verse, restoral is apparently possible...

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
NKJV

That's how I understand it.

[Guest]

My own view is very close to Christopher's. I believe the impossibility is in reference to the agency of men. The person who is spoken of as having fallen away has heard the Gospel before and has now rejected it. There is no more gospel to tell him. But nothing is impossible for God. I prayed for a dear relative for over 20 years, with almost no verbal witnessing; he had long ago heard the Gospel and been baptized. The prodigal finally came home!

[Guest]

Thanks for the replies. Can the word in the sentence "impossible" sometimes elsewhere mean "nearly impossible" or "very difficult" or is it just simply a way of expressing the difficulty of such a situation? Much like when we would say something like....................
"Trying to figure out this part of the Bible is just impossible"
knowing all along that it is possible - just very difficult

[Guest]

I don't have a total answer to this point but I think whenever we deal with the book of Hebrews we will do well to remember that this book was written mainly to address Jewish believers who had departed from " the faith" and were going back to the old Jewish religion. By saying this I am not implying that this book is not for us believing gentiles also. The falling away here I believe is describing a person who departed from faith in the atoneing sacrificial death of Christ and returned to the Jewish faith and it's animal sacrifices. This definately would be putting Christ to "open shame" in the timeframe of the writing of this epistle.

At a time when the jews were opposing the gosple and frustrating Pauls work , to have certain believers persuaded by them at that time to leave the faith and return to the Jewish faith would have been a real boasting for them and a confirmation that they were right in condeming the gospel of Christ. I believe this is the falling away Paul is referring to here.


Roger

[Guest]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Or could it mean this -

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,...to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

In other words we all fall away by the cause of sin in our lives but since Jesus paid the price for our sins once and for all that then it is impossible to be renewed again and again. One one time renewal is good enough and our initial repentence was a change of direction for us, in Christ, and even though we do sin it is not our mindset to sin. Paul spoke about how he continued to do over and over again what he did not want to do. "Oh wretcehed man" is what he called himself but he knew he had an advocate in Jesus Christ.

[Guest]

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Or could it mean this -

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,...to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

In other words we all fall away by the cause of sin in our lives but since Jesus paid the price for our sins once and for all that then it is impossible to be renewed again and again. One one time renewal is good enough and our initial repentence was a change of direction for us, in Christ, and even though we do sin it is not our mindset to sin. Paul spoke about how he continued to do over and over again what he did not want to do. "Oh wretcehed man" is what he called himself but he knew he had an advocate in Jesus Christ.

Okay Allyn, but how do you explain passages like this
KJV
Romans
11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

11:23
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again

Also what do you make of the Prodigal Son returning to his father and the lost sheep (once part of the flock and then out of the way)?

[Guest]

I don't have a total answer to this point but I think whenever we deal with the book of Hebrews we will do well to remember that this book was written mainly to address Jewish believers who had departed from " the faith" and were going back to the old Jewish religion. By saying this I am not implying that this book is not for us believing gentiles also. The falling away here I believe is describing a person who departed from faith in the atoneing sacrificial death of Christ and returned to the Jewish faith and it's animal sacrifices. This definately would be putting Christ to "open shame" in the timeframe of the writing of this epistle.

Good point Roger.

[Guest]

I guess I explain this that Hebrews is not speaking of a rejection of Christ but growth in Christ as shown by prior chapters before chapter 6. Chapter 6 is an introduction to deeper matters of faith. On the other hand Romans 11:22 is speaking of a people who have not come to Christ. If and when they do, they too will be grafted back in. In otherwords if a Jew who never once before believed on Jesus as Savior, thus was living in unbelief, came to know Jesus as Christ, then he too would be grafted in where as once he was cut off due to unbelief. The Jews held the position of the natural branches but some (in part) were cut off due to unbelief - some centuries prior to Christ.

[Guest]

AARONDISNEY,

I'm going to cut and paste my notes from two separate sources:

1) My own notes before hearing Steve speak on Hebrews
2) My notes from Steve's lectures on Hebrews

I apologize for not putting the 'best' ideas together for you, but here is the 'raw' data...

Perhaps they will shed some light on the subject.

Les

1)

- The writer in a difficult hyperbole explains that salvation is available only through Christ. If a true Christian openly rejects God’s grace/salvation, it is ‘virtually impossible’ for him to come back to faith again. In the context, Jewish Christians were in danger of doing this very thing. Like Paul says in Galatians, they began with the Spirit, but now are reverting back to the Mosaic system (See Gal 3:1-5) The point I believe is not that somebody who backslides is doomed to hell, but that rejecting Christ is like saying ‘Jesus wasn’t good enough the first time,’ so if you want back ‘in Christ’ you’ve got to humble yourself and come in the same way. See the continuation of my ideas after a few thoughts from others.
- According to Matthew Henry, the writer’s point is not ‘Christ is not sufficient for any repentant individual’ but that the nature of the sin committed (ie rejection of salvation) makes it impossible for that person to be saved.
- According to the Anglican commentary, the sin mentioned here is probably the ‘unpardonable’ sin mentioned in Matt 12:31&32, Mark 3:25-30 and Luke 12:9&10 where it is connected with the denial of Christ. Later, on his notes of Heb 12:17 this commentator mentions that the author does not say ‘they cannot repent,’ but ‘we cannot make them repent.’
- According to G. Richard Culp, author of a Mennonite-style devotional commentary on the book of Hebrews, “William Evans, though a consulting editor of the Scofield Bible, is right on target in his book Personal Soul Winning, concerning this verse. He indicates that the present participle (“seeing”) used here has the connotation of progressive or continuous action, and renders the clause, ‘while they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh.’ See also the footnote in the NIV. Thus the warning is that not only can we fall away through unbelief and sin, but there is no repentance available until we break off from the sin, and then we can be restored to the joy of salvation and fellowship through Chris and faith in His atoning blood. This is consistent with 1 John 1:7,9, where it indicates that if one sins, God will cleanse us from it if we confess and turn away from it – if we come back to Chris and then walk in the light of God’s Word…. To summarize, as long as we reject God’s remedy for sin there is no hope.
- While I admit I am no Greek scholar, my analytical Greek lexicon identifies the word translated ‘falling away’ to be a 2nd aorist participle and the word translated ‘crucifying again’ to be a present participle, as mentioned above. Since the aorist literally means ‘without horizon, without boundary’, it ‘looks at an action as a whole.’ As such, my best guess is that if a believer rejects God, they are unable to be brought back to repentance until they stop rejecting God. Doesn’t this just make common sense? The Holy Spirit is unable to convict them of sin and judgment, while they are in rejection of Him. The next two verses illustrate just how practical this idea is.

2)
- v4-6 ‘for it is impossible for those… if they fall away’ is the main clause
- v4-6 there are 3 main views of this passage
- 2 camps say that you can’t lose your salvation: 1) Calvinist – God will keep you faithful, because God will not allow you to fall away (i.e. you only know you’re Elect if you die saved), 2) Antinomian – You can fall away, but even if you do, you won’t lose your salvation (i.e. once saved, always saved)
- the other view is Armenian or Wesleyan, a true Christian can fall away and become lost
- Calvinists are ingenious in that they say the person described here was never really saved, that they ‘tasted’ but were never indwelt. The word taste is not used as nibbling (2:9). Partakers of the Holy Spirit are believers and believers are enlightened (10:32). The only thing in this view’s favour is the presupposition that true Christians cannot be lost.
- Other Calvinists take another view, by saying that it is a true Christian but that he is making a case that Christians cannot fall away. ‘If’ they could fall away is a hyperbole, because you can’t crucify Christ again. Therefore, Christians can’t fall away. It is only a hypothetical situation. Why then, would the author make this point at this time? His whole point is to warn of danger, not to comfort the believers at this time into complacency.
- V6 the Greek text actually reads ‘and have fallen away’ not ‘if’
- V6 crucify again = subjective experience, not talking about literally crucifying Jesus again, extending His suffering without the reward of His suffering (i.e. their souls)
- Doesn’t the Bible and experience indicate that people can come back to God? Repentance is held out to all people. The prodigal son (ref), James 5:19,20, Ezek 18:x-y (if you’re in sin and repent), Acts 17:x-y, 2 Pet 3:8
- Who is it impossible? Possibly impossible for an outside party to restore others, in the context the Hebrews are baby Christians and are not equipped to teach others or restore others to repentance. Alternatively, ‘impossible’ may be relative, so ‘nearly impossible.’ Compare with Matt 19:23
- It doesn’t say impossible to renew to salvation, but to repentance. Anyone who repents can be saved. The difficulty is getting somebody to repent.