Is the Lord Jesus the Holy Spirit?

[psimmond]

The OT speaks of God's spirit as God's power and the NT often does this as well*, but Jesus (and John & Paul) clearly gives the Holy Spirit those qualities that personalize him.

*Luk 1:35, 4:14. 5:17, 24:49, Acts 1:8, 8:19, 10:38, Rom 1:4, 8:11, 15:13, 15:19, 1 Cor 2:4-5, 5:4, 12:11, Eph 3:16, 1 Thess 1:5, 2 Tim 1:7

Here's an interesting article on this topic: http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2 ... 318080%3A1

[Paidion]

Don't you guys see how many logical problems are solved simply by giving the Spirit its own personhood? I mean we also see Jesus and the Father sometimes seeming interchangeable as well.

The number of problems that might be avoided by the view that the spirit it a third person, are greatly outnumbered by the number of problems generated.

[Paidion]

The OT speaks of God's spirit as God's power and the NT often does this as well*, but Jesus (and John & Paul) clearly gives the Holy Spirit those qualities that personalize him.

Yes, I fully agree that the spirit is God's power, and is also personal. No one who believes the spirit to be the extended persons of the Father and the Son would deny the spirit's personality. Such a belief IMPLIES the spirit's personality, but does not imply that the spirit is a third person, ontologically separate from the Father and the Son.

[dizerner]

Don't you guys see how many logical problems are solved simply by giving the Spirit its own personhood? I mean we also see Jesus and the Father sometimes seeming interchangeable as well.

The number of problems that might be avoided by the view that the spirit it a third person, are greatly outnumbered by the number of problems generated.

It's really easy to make a statement like that and not back it up. I'd like to see them side by side, the problems created versus the problems that are solved. Offhand, I can't think of a single problem created that doesn't apply to Jesus and the Father (go figure, a Trinity would work like that ).

[Paidion]

Well, why don't you start us off, by listing the problems associated with regarding the spirit as the extended persons of the Father and the Son?

[psimmond]

Paidion,
Did you read the link above from Dave Burke? He's a Christadelphian and his view is different from the Church of God (Seventh Day) but I think he does a good job of pointing out how the Hebrews thought of God's Spirit as God's power in action and how the Jews (and occasionally the ancient Hebrews) sometimes personified God's Spirit just as they personified wisdom. What do you think of the idea that God's spirit is often personified since people recognize this power as God at work?

[Paidion]

PSimmond, I hadn't read it until just a few minutes ago. I do not think the holy spirit if merely God's power. And as I have written I think the spirit is actually the persons of the Father and of the Son. What follows is something I wrote some years ago. At the time, I considered it a proof that the spirit of God is personal. I still think it is a pretty powerful argument, though there is a counter-argument:

Many claim the Holy Spirit to be the impersonal force of God to accomplish what God decides to do. But the words of John 16:13 clearly show the Holy Spirit to be personal:

ὁταν δε ἐλθη ἐκεινος το πνευμα της ἀληθειας ὁδηγησει ὑμας εἰς την ἀληθειαν πασαν

Now when that one comes, the spirit of reality, he will guide you into all reality.

We cannot derive personality from “ὁδηγησει” (he will guide), for it can also be correctly translated “it will guide”.

The clincher is the word “ἐκεινος” (that one). It is in the MASCULINE gender, whereas the word “πνευμα” (spirit) is in the NEUTER gender. If John had considered the spirit to be non-personal, then he would have used the neuter form “ἐκεινο” to agree with its antecedant, the noun “πνευμα”.

I checked my book of transcripts of all existing New Testament Greek manuscripts before the year 300 A.D. and found that the text occurs in the ancient manuscript papyrus 66, and yes, the demonstrative pronoun is “ἐκεινος” (masculine) and not “ἐκεινο” (neuter).

The above does not prove that the Holy Spirit is a THIRD divine person (the Spirit may be the Person of the Father and/or the Son), but it definitely proves the personality of the Spirit.

[psimmond]

Thanks Paidion,
The biggest argument I can think of against the Holy Spirit being God's "force" personified comes from the 8th chapter of Romans:

"In the same way the Spirit also joins to help in our weakness, because we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with unspoken groanings. And He who searches the hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:26-27)

Here the Spirit has a mind/mindset, and he helps us communicate with the Father.

[Paidion]

Right, PSimmond. How could a force intercede before God for us? I would see this as the spirit of Christ interceding for us, that is, Jesus Himself who became a life-giving spirit.
(1 Corinthians 15:45)

The writer to the Hebrews stated direcly that it is Jesus who makes intercession for those who come to God through Him:
Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. (Hebrews 7:25)