Atontement: Was it "necessary" for God to die?

[dizerner]

darinhouston, I respect what you are asking, but I feel like you are asking something that only mental reasoning from Scripture alone can not give you. When Isaiah saw the Lord's glory and cried out "Woe is me, I am unclean," did he counter reason, "Yea, but I wouldn't see my own child as unclean and my own child wouldn't really see me as glorious, and maybe a proper exegetical study of the Torah might invalidate this experience I'm having, I really just want to call God "Pops," go fishing together, and get a mild slap when I make a mistake." But God is described as "Holy, Holy, Holy," and the entire heavenly temple shook every time the declaration was made. I'm not trying to be trite here—to see the depth of our sin, to see the height and purity of the holiness of God, to see the real intensity and worth of the agony and Blood of the King of Kings, even the people beholding a physical man dying with some criminals, didn't necessarily see. Even the Pharisees challenged him "If you are God, come down from the cross now! Do a miracle! Prove it!" And that might not seem like an unreasonable request to the natural mind. But this Messiah "had no stately form or majesty That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him." Here's the clincher, we need a new birth to truly be a child of God, and a new birth requires the travail of giving birth (without a modern day drugs or operation anyway, as it's a picture). Without a travail and a consequent birth, we are still children of Satan, because our natural inclination is not to deny self and not to live only to glorify God. I know many people don't like the doctrine of original sin and many people don't like the idea that God himself had to intensely suffer for our own sins, but I don't think the natural mind will ever gravitate in that direction or find any affection for it. The Word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, says Paul. Foolishness? Have we got to make it more than that now? Is the "Foolishness" of God stronger the wisdom of men? Or not? I've had my greatest spiritually moving experiences when I came to pursue the truth of salvation and see the "price" that was paid, and I won't back down from that terminology—I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ. I think people, in search of doctrinal truth, will read 600 page doctrinal books of a man saying what he thinks, then merely skim through the Bible itself. It would be more beneficial to spend that time reading, say, the book of Romans 100 times seeking and praying "God give me the revelation of what this holy Book itself says, and I won't stop until you do." Now I don't expect you to "agree" with me on this, nor am I even seeking that agreement. I truly shared my heart and my personal life experience here, perhaps it could give someone new ideas about their own personal devotional life.

[jriccitelli]

I agree with the above, and I think I hear your question Darin, but as I read your objection, I hear an erroneous pulpit text, for some reason Calvinist kind of sermon, where some divine argument had to be fulfilled to atone for sin, or the of the great 'insult' sin is to God. A rather pious argument I hear from some pulpits sometimes. Sin certainly ruins our relationship with God, other humans, and with creation in general, but there is no great 'injury' to God. An injury or 'payment' that has to be healed to make God feel better (as seems to be the case with some teaching on the atonement). The divine Law is that sinners will die, that's all.

This time of existence is a 'lesson to us' to show the greatness of our sin, the greatness of sin in general, sins destructiveness, and in response: Gods act of grace and love. A great act of reconciliation to teach us something about ourselves and God, not a divine payment or 'formula' that had to be paid to God, rather it is just a lesson and or a demonstration of God's Justice and truth.

Scripture does not make atonement into a thoughtless formula, rather atonement is a thoughtful demonstration and important lesson of Gods justice, and yet how sin is atoned for may in fact be demonstrated that nothing created can be so great to take away or atone for sin. If it were thought to be so, then sin may not be such a great and terrible thing after all. If it were thought to be so: then something in Creation can be without sin, and therefore creation can be of itself sinless. If it were thought to be so: then something else in creation may be as good and holy as God. That seems to be the direction all thought outside of the divine justice and Deity of Christ ends up at.

Darin at first you seemed to ask for scripture that says it was 'necessary' that 'God' had to die to forgive our sins. There is none. Because God did not 'have' to do anything. But God 'did' demand: sacrifices be done His way / that they follow His commands and rule / that He Himself would provide The Sacrifice / that He alone would save us / there is no other Savior / no One else can forgive sins but God / there is no One Good or Holy but God alone / and Him shall you serve, alone. So that all must apply to Christ, if Christ Jesus is our atonement, or He is not able to save us, or Himself. That is what His WORD says:

'He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken. 9 And it will be said in that day, "Behold, this is our God for whom we have waited that He might save us. This is the LORD for whom we have waited; Let us rejoice and be glad in His salvation." (Isaiah 25:9)

'For the LORD is our judge, The LORD is our lawgiver, The LORD is our king; He will save us' (Isaiah 33:22)

'O give thanks to the LORD, for He is good; For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 'Cry out, "Save us, God our Savior; gather us and deliver us from the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name, and glory in your praise." (1Chron 16:34-35)

'How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You To dwell in Your courts. We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Your holy temple. 5 By awesome deeds You answer us in righteousness, O God of our salvation, You who are the trust of all the ends of the earth and of the farthest sea' (Psalm 65)

Gods Word says I should trust in God 'alone', and no other, that He is my Savior, and His Word is His Word. Do you trust in Gods WORD for you salvation

[darinhouston]

dzirner and jriccitelli, no offense, but your responses sounded more like sermons or evangelical outreaches than responses to my question. jriccitelli, I can assure you that I trust in Christ for my salvation. (perhaps trusting in the WORD is a point for another thread).

Dzirner, you mention that you can't read the Scripture without getting a sense for God's Holiness. I agree, but the extent to which I acknowledge my wretchedness in the shadow of a Holy God doesn't address the question of His Holiness being affected by even the sum total of all human wretchedness. I do think you answered my question, however, when you acknowledge that mental reason from Scripture alone can't support this position.

And, yes, jrcittelli, this position does resonate from Calvinistic pulpit sermons.


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[Homer]

Hi Darrin,

You wrote:

My post is really concerning the position that a sin against an infinite God causes an infinte harm to him that can only be repaid by the sacrifice of God Himself.

But, let's look at my OP from a slightly different perspective. The above is assumed, but couldn't one also see that God's Holiness is not so infinite that any harm against it is an infinite harm, but instead that He is so infinite that He can't be truly harmed by a finite man's sin? Even if that sin is so aggregious that it causes harm to all of Creation and all of mankind to follow, couldn't we see God as so strong and Holy and unharmable that such a sin has no discernible effect on Him at all? Why the notion that our sin (great or small) has the capability to harm Him in a way that requires Him to have to come to earth and permit Himself to die?

Thanks for the clarification; we have been talking past each other here. I agree - I do not believe we harm God by our sin. I do believe, however, that we offend God by our sin. Whenever we sin, and in doing so harm others who God loves, He is the one most greatly offended. What I do believe is that the idea of sins being "finite" is a false idea unprovable by either scripture or philosophy. Who can say the harm we do to our fellow man is limited or measurable in some way? Some time ago I posted the following to make this point:

Last night I was thinking about Andy. Andy, a friend of our two sons, has just lost his battle with brain cancer. Life seems so unfair. Andy was a good Christian, someone that everyone who knew him said what a nice person he was. And I thought of Andy's parents. Although they are Christians, their loss must be immense.

Then somehow an old tragedy came to mind. My wife and I grew up in central California, east of Fresno. We lived not far from the "river bottom" where the Kings River poured out of the Sierras. "God's country" as the people in Fresno said. A place of rivers, streams, and ponds within a few miles, where I spent many happy days fishing.

It was not a happy place for one family. My wife knew them all well, was in their home. They were Christians. Their little girl, Esther Lee Lewis, was waiting near a bridge for her school bus. A wicked man abducted her and she was raped and murdered. You can imagine what else she suffered.

Our universalist friends inform us that it is unjust to suffer unending punishment for "finite" sin. When I think of this little girl and her family, and this idea of her murder being a "finite sin", it almost makes me sick!
How do you measure the suffering of the child? How do you measure the suffering of her parents? Is there a way to determine the height, width, depth, or weight of it? What scale or measuring instrument would you use? I am unable to imagine how bad they must have felt. I can think of nothing more painful than the death of an innocent child, especially one horribly murdered.

In the case of Esther's family, the mother was never the same again. The father turned bitterly against God for years. My wife says there was a pall of sadness over the whole family as long as she knew them. And you speak of "finite" sin.

And it is posited that even Hitler will be rehabilitated and brought into the heavenly fold. Hitler has outdone the wickedness of Esther Lee's murderer by the millions. Let us measure his "finite" wickedness!

And the consequences of Esther Lee's rape and murder are endless. The children she would have given birth to never came into existence nor their descendants. And the good her progeny would have accomplished is never done. Perhaps she would have had a child who became a missionary and saved many souls. We will never know or be able to measure. And to think of Hitler's sins as finite is revolting.

I believe God sovereignly chose, in His infinite wisdom and His good pleasure, that the sacrifice of His Son would be the way to reconcile man to Himself. It was planned before the foundation of the world, prophesied in the Old Testament, and had to be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, i.e. the Old Testament.

[darinhouston]

I believe God sovereignly chose, in His infinite wisdom and His good pleasure, that the sacrifice of His Son would be the way to reconcile man to Himself. It was planned before the foundation of the world, prophesied in the Old Testament, and had to be fulfilled. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets, i.e. the Old Testament.

As do I


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[Paidion]

Dizerner, your long list of scriptural quotations clearly show that Jesus, with his death (or "blood" if you will) purchased people from many nations.This is a fact that I have never denied.

What you have NOT shown, is that Jesus paid for our sins.

[dizerner]

I do think you answered my question, however, when you acknowledge that mental reason from Scripture alone can't support this position.

I don't think mental reason from Scripture can support most vital doctrines... look at the testimony of Scripture about itself. Firstly it often says that it, itself, can be easily distorted and manipulated by both the carnal mind and negative spiritual influences. Secondly Scripture consistently testifies that you need the outside help of the Spirit of God and cannot possibly ever discover the truths through the natural mind alone. So if we want to say "Ah, well I'm glad you admit at least that what you believe about Scripture can't be proven," I would see that as a moot point, really. I don't think anything can be proven, because you can interpret the Scriptures in so many different ways and we see that people on both sides of an issue always think they alone are interpreting it correctly. How can you possibly discover a metaphysical truth with reasoning alone?

[jriccitelli]

dzirner and jriccitelli, no offense, but your responses sounded more like sermons or evangelical outreaches than responses to my question. jriccitelli, I can assure you that I trust in Christ for my salvation. (perhaps trusting in the WORD is a point for another thread) (Darin)

The Evangelical message from Genesis on remains the same: God is our Savior, the Savior of Israel, the Savior of the world. There are false Jesus' we are warned of that, so are we warned of following false gods. There is no more central doctrine than who God is, or how many gods there are, and the warning of false gods.

Who is the Savior of the Old testament, it is God. Who is the Savior of all Israel, it is God. If Jesus is not God then He is not the Savior of Israel, or anyone. Who is this 'Christ' you are trusting in then? This is not the same God or the same Jesus. No offense, I don't know how else to put it...

[dizerner]

Don't feel bad, jr, everything Jesus and Paul said sounds like a sermon too.

[TheEditor]

Don't feel bad, jr, everything Jesus and Paul said sounds like a sermon too.

Actually, I'm not so sure. When I listen to radio sermons like that of Macarthur or Sproul, I don't picture Jesus in a hologram looking on telling his Apostles, "You see there boys, THAT'S how I wanted it done!" If he does, time for me to pack my valize and move to Velice.

Regards, Brenden.