Happy (almost) New Year to all!
So, okay, where should we start? Well, okay, first of all, we will eventually have to talk about the Trinity in all of this, since all truths about Christ are related, ultimately, back to what we believe (or do not believe) about the Trinity. But, that is, of course, a whole other discussion. For now, I will simply say this. The Holy Scriptures clearly reveal to us that there is such a thing as generation, paternity, and sonship within God. Thus, for example, with regard to generation, we read, in what is clearly a prophecy of Christ (according to Heb. 1:5 and Acts 13:33), “You are my son, this day I have begotten you.” (Psalms 2:7) With regard to paternity and sonship within God, we clearly see Christ (the Word) referred to both as the “only-begotten Son”, eg., John 1:18, and as being God Himself (Jn. 1:14) Who proceeded from the Father (John 8:42); this in addition to the many times in which Christ refers to God as His “Father” in a special way (eg., “All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son...” (Mt. 11:27) “[He] called God his own Father, making himself equal to God.” (Jn. 5:18)).
And, so, while we have not the space here to lay out a full theological explanation for the doctrine on the Trinity, these Scriptural references form the basis for such theological development. That development states, in sum, that God, the Father, knowing Himself perfectly generates, in a manner that is perfectly spiritual/intellectual, a perfect Thought (Word) of Himself (“In the beginning was the Word, etc.” (Jn. 1:1)), and for this reason this Word is called “the Word”. And this Word is so perfect a Thought that He is a perfect representation or image of the Father (“being the brightness of His glory and the image of His substance” (Heb. 1:3)). And, since an image that proceeds by way of generation from another can be called a son, this Word is also called, “The Son”. And, this Son, as Son, is so perfect an image of the Father, and this Word, as Word, so perfect a representation of the Father, that He is actually one in substance with the Father (“I and the Father are one.” (Gospel of John)) And, since the Father is God, the Word (the Son), being the exact same substance as the Father, is also God. “In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God.” So, we have the perfect generation of the Word (the Son) from the Father; a generation that is so perfect that the Son that is generated from the Father is not only “like” the Father (as human sons are like their fathers), but actually is one in being, one in very substance with the Father (showing that the Father is a TRUE Father and the most perfect of all Fathers possible—all fatherhood in heaven and on earth is from him, as Paul says somewhere in Ephesians, I believe.)
And, as God has not only an intellect but also a will, and as the Father generates the Son (the Word) through His intellect, so, too, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son by means of the will through love; and, while I don’t have time to go into the theological development behind that, let it simply be stated here that the Divinity of the Holy Spirit can be seen in various places throughout the Holy Scriptures, eg., “Know you not that you are temples of the Holy Spirit?”, asks the Apostle Paul (but a Temple belongs properly to God, so the Holy Spirit must be God). “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.” (1 Cor. 2:10) But only One Who is God can know even the deep things of God (so the Holy Spirit must be God, one in substance with the Father and the Son).
So, again, there is no time or space here to lay out all of the theological development on the Trinity that flows from what is revealed in the Divine Scriptures, but those are some points of departure for such development, which development culminates in simply stating, as the Church has for many centuries now, that there are three distinct Divine Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in the one God (and, while this is mysterious and could never be known with certitude by our reason alone-- God needed to reveal this Mystery to us in order for us to know it-- nevertheless, this Mystery should not be "too surprising" to us, or, at least, can be seen to be reasonable or believable to us, if we simply consider, for example, that God made creation to reflect His very nature, and one thing that certainly stands out about man, who is the height of God’s material creation, is that man is not only a physical creature, but also an intellectual/spiritual being who is able to generate thoughts within Himself-- a mere reflection in our natures of the eternal generation of the Word within God; likewise, man is a social being, meant to live in community—and human family and community is a mere reflection in creation of the inner community of Three Persons that exists in the Triune God).
Now, this Second Person of the Trinity, the Word, the Son, while not ceasing to be God, took to Himself, in the womb of the Holy Virgin, a human nature, that is, a body and soul like ours (that He had a body like ours, I don’t think anyone here is questioning; that He had a soul like ours, it seems some might be questioning—to which I would simply refer to such statements of Christ as, “My soul is sorrowful, even unto death”, clearly showing that He, like us, had a human soul; and Paul says Christ is like us in all things, except sin, again showing that, since we have a human body and soul, so does Christ). Thus it is that the Word became Flesh, became Man, and dwelt among us. That the Word could not ever cease to become God is quite evident when one realizes that One Who is God cannot, as God, change, as both sound reasoning and the Scriptures themselves teach (and, such an idea that the Word could cease to be Divine would also contradict other Scriptures, eg., “All things were made through [the Word], and without him was made nothing that has been made,” (Jn. 1:3); but, as some things were made during the time the Word lived on earth, eg., the souls of all human beings who were conceived during this time, they needed to be made through the Word, and this necessarily means that He, of course, remained God while being also a Man on earth, for only One Who is God can create; likewise, "In him all things hold together," (Col. 1:17), showing that, since all things held together while Christ was a Man on earth, during this time Christ was also the God of the universe, holding all things together). And, should one ask/wonder if the Word becoming flesh means that there was a change to the Divine Nature in this occurring, the answer is that there was not any change to the Divine Nature in this Incarnation, but, rather, the change that occurred was effected in the human nature that was assumed by the Person of the Word (in other words, as the human nature that was created in the Holy Virgin’s womb began to be, although it had not been there before, so, too, not having been previously united to God in Person, it was, afterwards, i.e., from the first moment of its creation in that Blessed Virgin’s womb, united to the Divine Person of the Word).
And, since this Man, Jesus Christ, is also, at the same time, God—the same God that He, before He became Man in the womb of the Virgin, always was, is now, and always will be—I will again simply say that, “Yes, we can say that God, the Second Person of the Trinity, in His human nature, died on the Cross for us on Good Friday…O Divine Love unfathomable!”
Before I end, we do well to consider some of the statements made by a couple of the great masters of theology from the Church's past on this topic of the Incarnation (and Redemption), beginning with the great Athanasius:
And, finally, the great Leo the Great (Pope), explained the mystery of the Incarnation (and Redemption) in this manner:
The Word took to himself the sons of Abraham, says the Apostle, and so had to be like his brothers in all things. He had then to take a body like ours. This explains the fact of Mary’s presence: she is to provide him with a body of his own, to be offered for our sake. Scripture records her giving birth, and says: She wrapped him in swaddling clothes. Her breasts, which fed him, were called blessed. Sacrifice was offered because the child was her firstborn. Gabriel used careful and prudent language when he announced his birth. He did not speak of “what will be born in you” to avoid the impression that a body would be introduced into her womb from outside; he spoke of “what will be born from you,” so that we might know by faith that her child originated within her and from her.
By taking our nature and offering it in sacrifice, the Word was to destroy it completely and then invest it with his own nature, and so prompt the Apostle to say: This corruptible body must put on incorruption; this mortal body must put on immortality.
This was not done in outward show only, as some have imagined. This is not so. Our Saviour truly became man, and from this has followed the salvation of man as a whole. Our salvation is in no way fictitious, nor does it apply only to the body. The salvation of the whole man, that is, of soul and body, has really been achieved in the Word himself.
What was born of Mary was therefore human by nature, in accordance with the inspired Scriptures, and the body of the Lord was a true body: It was a true body because it was the same as ours. Mary, you see, is our sister, for we are all born from Adam.
The words of St John, the Word was made flesh, bear the same meaning, as we may see from a similar turn of phrase in St Paul: Christ was made a curse for our sake. Man’s body has acquired something great through its communion and union with the Word. From being mortal it has been made immortal; though it was a living body it has become a spiritual one; though it was made from the earth it has passed through the gates of heaven.
Even when the Word takes a body from Mary, the Trinity remains a Trinity, with neither increase nor decrease. It is for ever perfect. In the Trinity we acknowledge one Godhead, and thus one God, the Father of the Word, is proclaimed in the Church.
The proper character of both natures [human and Divine] was maintained and came together in a single person. Lowliness was taken up by majesty, weakness by strength, mortality by eternity. To pay off the debt of our state, invulnerable nature was united to a nature that could suffer; so that in a way that corresponded to the remedies we needed, one and the same mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, could both on the one hand die and on the other be incapable of death. Thus was true God born in the undiminished and perfect nature of a true man, complete in what is his and complete in what is ours. By "ours" we mean what the Creator established in us from the beginning and what he took upon himself to restore. There was in the Saviour no trace of the things which the Deceiver brought upon us, and to which deceived humanity gave admittance. His subjection to human weaknesses in common with us did not mean that he shared our sins. He took on the form of a servant without the defilement of sin, thereby enhancing the human and not diminishing the divine. For that self-emptying whereby the Invisible rendered himself visible, and the Creator and Lord of all things chose to join the ranks of mortals, spelled no failure of power: it was an act of merciful favour. So the one who retained the form of God when he made humanity, was made man in the form of a servant. Each nature kept its proper character without loss; and just as the form of God does not take away the form of a servant, so the form of a servant does not detract from the form of God.
And, so, we have the great mystery of the Incarnation (and Redemption): one Divine Person, uniting within Himself two natures (the Divine nature, and the human nature), and, in that human nature, dying (and rising!) for us; a mystery that flows from the great mystery of the Trinity: one God in Three Divine Persons-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- to Whom belongs all power and glory now, and throughout this upcoming new year, and, indeed, forever! Amen.
In Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Trinity, the Son of God and the Son of Mary,
BrotherAlan
P.S.
And, just some closing thoughts on all of this (at least for now): As interesting (and even entertaining) as these discussions are, they also show (to me at least) the great need we all have for guidance from experts on these very lofty matters...and, in particular, guidance from a Church on all of this. For, while “All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work,” (2 Tim. 3:16-17), at the same time, in some/many parts of the Scriptures, “there are certain things difficult to understand, which the unlearned and the unstable distort, just as they do the rest of the Scriptures also, to their own destruction.” (1 Pet. 3:16) This verse, written, actually, by the Apostle upon whom Christ “built His Church” (cf., Mt. 16:18), i.e., the Apostle Peter, reminds us of the need for all of us to seek help in interpreting and reading the Divine Scriptures (lest we distort these holy Scriptures to our own destruction; for, as common human experience shows, the more noble a thing is, the more it can help us when used well, but, also, the more we can get “burned” if we do not use it well; eg., a gun can really help us defend ourselves, if used well; but, if not used well, we can kill ourselves with it! Similarly, too, with the Scriptures—they can lead us to eternal life if we read them well, or they can, as Peter said, lead us to destruction if we, being unlearned or unstable, distort them...sobering, but true, thoughts these are).
Now, as some of you know, I am a Catholic--- and, so, I must point out that this Apostle Peter, whom I just quoted, was, actually, the first Pope of the Catholic Church. And, so, this message from him on the need to read the Scriptures well reminds us of the great need for all of us, as followers of Christ, to rely upon the judgments and interpretations of Scripture that have been given by the Church founded by Christ, i.e., the Catholic Church. For, while, again, this thread has been carrying on an interesting debate about all of these issues surrounding the nature(s) of Christ, and of Christ’s relationship to His Father, the fact is that these debates have already been carried on, and most, if not all, of them were basically settled long ago within the Catholic Church in her early Creeds and Councils (eg., the Councils of Nicea, Ephesus, Chalcedon, Constantinople I & II, etc.), as well as by her great theologians in the 1st and early 2nd millennium of the Church, such as those authors quoted above, i.e., Athanasius and Pope Leo the Great (not to mention so many other great theologians, such as St. Albert the Great, Peter Lombard, St. Augustine, and, especially, the greatest of them all, the "Angelic" St. Thomas Aquinas). Why not rely upon the authentic, authoritative, and, indeed, infallible judgments of Christ’s Church on such important and difficult matters?
For, these ARE very difficult questions, and it is practically impossible for anyone without a very thorough training in theology to answer these questions well (and, even such a one with such training would be foolish to not seek the wisdom from these authoritative ancients on matters of such import and difficulty); it would be easier to answer very difficult questions about, say, mathematics without having advanced training in that subject (for, as I personally know-- having spent a good number of years in formal study of both math and theology-- compared to theology, even something as challenging as mathematics seems easy!).
And, so, if you really want to get sound answers to these very good, intriguing, and important questions concerning Christ (and His relationship to His Father), I invite/encourage you, even if you are not now Catholic, to study (and pray over) the Catholic Church’s ancient teachings on these questions—teachings that, again, date back to the ancient Church Councils, and have been continued to develop over the ages by the Catholic Church’s great theologians (especially, again, the amazingly brilliant and extremely holy "Angelic Doctor", St. Thomas Aquinas). And a simple form of such study can easily be done by your average person this day by simply studying the recent Catechism of the Catholic Church and Compendium Catechism of the Catholic Church (these are sources which are official sources, as they were approved by Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI, and they were written precisely for the average modern person...see http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM and http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendiu ... cc_en.html). I would also recommend a study of the famous Baltimore Catechism (a catechism made for middle-school children, but containing truths that even adults should continue to ponder, study, pray over; see http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/). God bless...
