DO YOU AGREE?

[canada]

Paidion ... you said ... "The great city that reigned over the kings of the earth in John's day was Rome. And why not the city of Rome itself? After all, the passage speaks of the woman sitting on the seven mountains. We've all heard of the seven hills of Rome."

Paidion ... have you thought through your response?

Let's say for once that I agree with you that that great city is the City of Rome and God completely destroys it as described in Rev 17 and 18.

That automatically destroys Vatican City ... for it is a city within the city of Rome.

You can call it Rome ... I can call it Rome ... but God is more interested in destroying the religious harlot part of Rome rather than the secular.

I dont see how you would still be left unconvinced if this did come about and you still wondered whether it was "that great city". Each to his own convincing I guess.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[canada]

Regarding former RC's that came out of her and became born again.

dizerner ... to this you said "These are people that never worshiped the beast."

I recall that eschatology is not your forte in posting, but are you suggesting that those within Romanism now are not worshiping the beast? Are you of the impression that the "primate" of Rome is not one of the beasts of Revelation?

If so, our conversation will go nowhere. And as to the image, mark and number of the beast, those are too heavy duty subjects to interject them into this fairly simple question of the OP.

I have a very deep interest and study into them but that would be for another thread. Sorry.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[canada]

Locating that great city Mystery Babylon from Revelation’s biblical identifiers … not from the 11 o’clock news about the latest hot spot in conflict on the world scene at this particular moment in time.

It is located on seven hills and has reigned over kings of the earth.
What other city located on seven hills has reigned over kings also?
Does this other city fulfill the following identifiers?

According to Rev 17:11 this city on seven hills is associated with an eighth and yet is of the seven. Vaticanus Hill is across the river from the seven hills of Rome and yet is of the seven … it is a city within a city.

Are any of the seven hilled cities that critics bring up associated with an eighth hill and have reigned over kings of the earth as has Rome?

The Church of Rome claims thousands upon thousands of miracles.
And thousands of times daily, its priests claim to literally change wine into the blood of Jesus.

Of the other seven hilled cities that critics note, which if any make these miraculous claims daily, has reigned over kings of the earth, and is associated with an eighth hill?

Rev 17:4 notes that this city is associated with purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones and pearls and has a golden cup in her hand. Is not the wealth of the Vatican and it’s universal church beyond count … does it not parade in purple and scarlet and is not it’s “miracle mass” performed with a golden cup?

Which of the other seven hilled cities in the world put forth by critics put on a performance such as you see in Rome … and yet fulfill the four identifiers noted earlier?

Rev 18:11 notes that “she” (the harlot church) merchandises in “the souls of men”. It is not only in Rome, but around the world that Romanism does this merchandising, and at one time sold “indulgences” that absolved the sinner of certain sins.

Of the seven hilled cities of the critics, which if any, perform in this manner and … fulfill the previous identifiers?

Yes … Jerusalem city has been a choice for full and partial preterists and even some futurists … but does it truly fit the biblical identifiers of Vatican City within the city of Rome being that “great mysterious city”?

The first beast is Imperial Rome … the second beast is religious Rome.
According to Revelation, this mystery city is associated with a “False Prophet. Is it a “coincidence” that the word “vatic” means … prophet?

The Vatican hierarchy and its papacy is the False Prophet (second beast) of Rev 13 that performs “miracles” … in the sight of men …gullible men.

And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from “heaven on the earth” in the sight of men.

The “fire” is upon his head … the two horned papal mitre symbolizes the presence of the holy spirit upon the pope as did the “cloven tongues of fire” that appeared upon the head of the apostles.
1. A papal glossary, The Vancouver Sun Aug 1984.

The “signs” which it has power to do are merely “lying wonders” not true wonders of God.

Who has not heard the Romish tales of “winking” Madonnas, “weeping” images and miracles and cures wrought through the power of “sacred relics” and the bones of saints. Even raising of the dead has been claimed.

Does Jerusalem or other seven hilled cities claim this “power” or is it generally centered in Rome?

Should we believe what the Bible tells us how to identify “Mystery Babylon” or should we be listening to our news pundits giving us the “latest” about the middle East?

Yes, it is tempting to claim Jerusalem as being that mystery city, for it is front and center currently, but does it fulfill the description given to us in Revelation … I think if we are honest with ourselves we would say no.

Rev 17 speaks about this great city shedding the blood of saints and martyrs. Does the “inquisition” come to mind?

Rev 16:6 notes that they of this city “have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink: for they are worthy.

By their own claim of changing wine into the literal blood of Jesus, God clearly identifies them, for the Romish priests then “drink the blood”.

Do you believe Revelation identifies Jerusalem as being Mystery Babylon, or does the evidence identify Rome and its religion?

I would like to hear truthful answers to this question. If you honestly believe the evidence in Revelation points to Jerusalem as being Mystery Babylon, I will silently slip into the sunset.

A son of Mary David and Joseph … a carpenter.

[jriccitelli]

Canada, I believe all these things will happen in the lifetime of the generation that observes 'all' these things (Some people may not see these things if they are completely ignorant of current events or a recluse, even if not of their own doing). So if you see the things preceding the final events in your own lifetime, then you can be sure the end is indeed here (why I am not a Historicist). I think that predicting that an event was certainly 'the' event prophesied would have to be confirmed by all the following events happening within a generation of the first. Saying an event was 'the' event would be akin to guessing the day and the hour of the end (which is unwise). I believe only a Prophet can confirm that the end is the end. In the end I believe there are two Prophets, and 'they' will confirm what we are seeing as being the end. Then we can choose if we believe them, but still, only the end will confirm the end is the end.

[jriccitelli]

That sounded rather simplistic, because I would rather not speculate about Rome or Jerusalem (or Sodom, Egypt /Jerusalem). It is hard to fit one city into the so many details of this city Mystery Babylon. The biblical city just has so much commercializing, cargo and commerce for either historically. I might add that Ancient Babylon is in the news just as well, and may indeed become just as rich, but industry and shipping anything other than oil, gold, and silver seem improbable. Maybe this city has yet to be built? New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Tokyo, (and Shenzhen China for example) did not take more than a century or so to be so large or powerful, and wealth and construction can happen much faster these days. I thing an end time collapse of economies will highlight a specific city to a degree we have ‘not yet’ imagined, do to shortages, oil, centralized govt. and technology, this city will gain a sickening amount of wealth and power.

[canada]

My recent question was ... "Locating that great city Mystery Babylon from Revelation's biblical identifiers ... ... ... "

The question was also ... "If you honestly believe the evidence in Revelation points to Jerusalem ... ... ... "

The term "Mystery Babylon" is not found anywhere in the Bible other than once in Revelation.
To seek the answer elsewhere invites speculation.
Exactly what does God tell us about it in the book of Revelation ... what do we know for sure?

I will be as blunt as I can possibly be so that the question is clearly understood.

Do you honestly believe the evidence He presents to us in this specific book about this great city Mystery Babylon points to Jerusalem?

Do you honestly believe the evidence from this specific book points to Rome or do you believe the evidence presented in Revelation points to some other city?

The term "Mystery Babylon" only occurs once in scripture so one invites speculation by going elsewhere.


As an aside ... I enjoy discussing the first and second beasts of Revelation, but it never fails to occur on discussion boards ... ... withing moments, every term other than first or second beast is injected into the conversation and it starts to go in all direction.

"antichrist" ... "man of sin" ... "man of lawlessness" ... "son of perdition" ... "prince who is to come"

[Paidion]

The term "Mystery Babylon" is not found anywhere in the Bible other than once in Revelation.
To seek the answer elsewhere invites speculation.

And it is by no means clear that it is found even there! There is no evidence that the two words are considered to be a single name. Consider the following translations:

And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations.” (ESV)

On her forehead a cryptic name was written:
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE VILE THINGS OF THE EARTH (HCSB)

And on her forehead a name was written, a mystery, "BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH." (NASB)

On her forehead is written a name with a secret meaning—BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF ALL HARLOTS AND OF THE EARTH’S ABOMINATIONS. (Philips)

And, upon her forehead, a name written, a secret: Babylon the great, the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth. (Rotherham)

And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: "Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations." (RSV)

And in her forehead was a name written, a mystery, great Babylon the mother of whoredom and abominations of the earth. (TRC)

And on her forehead was a name written: "I am a symbol of great Babylon, the mother of the harlots and of the abominations of the earth." (WEY)

On her forehead was written a name with a symbolical meaning, "Mighty Babylon, the mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations." (Williams)

[canada]

So much confusion eh!