Futurist application of Matthew 24 to the end times

[robbyyoung]

Robby,
You have a method of not precisely addressing my responses but answering almost in a pre-packaged way to defend Preterism.

Brother steve7150, I don't know how many times I have to say this, I defend the inspiration of the NT Writers; the audience relevance as dictated TO THEM by The Holy Spirit and the TIME PARAMETERS involved. If that means "The Past" from our perspective, then so be it. I'm trying to have a conversation without placing anyone into man-made boxes, in order for the text, and context to speak for itself.

The first thing is that "as it was in the days of Noah" lines up precisely with Luke 17.26 which Luke shows is a different discourse then Luke 21. Luke 21 is about Jerusalem 70AD but Luke 17.22 - 37 is about the second coming. Matthew 24 is divided into two different discourses with Matt 24.36 on, lining up with Luke 17.22-37.

steve7150, there is no dichotomy here. As Luke 17:22 states, "And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."

This depicts and tells The Disciples that HIS parousia consist of not ONE day but a extended period of time, just as the term "parousia" entails. Next, this is describing the tribulation period The Disciples will undergo, and since Christ's judgments or "days" will still yet be future to them, they will simply desire it during this time, but WILL NOT see it. This is why they were to remain patient and faithful, not to run after so-called claims that Christ and one of HIS days are present (or judgment towards their persecutors). HE said, go not after them and then gives the sign of the lightning, because that's when they'll emphatically know.

The essence of "the days of Noah" is the suddenness of judgment which certainly was not the case in 70AD , plus the ones subject to Judgment were taken away and their corpses were found eaten by eagles, again nothing like 70AD. 70AD was a three year siege of starvation, nothing sudden about it.

steve7150, the Noah and Lot comparison conflates with the sign of "The abomination that makes Desolate", which is the Roman Army surrounding The City. Luke 17:31 states, "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back."

Before the outbreak of war (AD 65-66) The Christians were being slaughtered by the Jews, in concert with Nero, and Jews were living their rebellious life as usual, for instance, The Temple's construction was finished in AD 65. Besides the now unemployment of 18,000 Jews, and the Zealots pushing for more open rebellion, life is normal.

AD 65 is mostly likely when all Christians fled Judea, for in AD 66 "The Abomination of Desolation" occurred. That's when it was too late and those who did not heed the warnings were trapped. For literally this was the case, "On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back." This accurately describes the lifestyle of the communities in Judea without any metaphors or symbolism.

I think the day and hour of this 70AD siege was known by Jesus as he told his disciples to flee when armies surrounded Jerusalem because the army pulled back temporarily and that was the time to flee. Plus one could visibly see the Roman army marching toward Jerusalem therefore the actual day and hour certainly could be visibly seen and known.

steve7150, "The Day and Hour" is talking about the day of consummation. For on this day we have, The Rapture, Judgment, and Resurrection. This day of consummation happened in the lifetime of The Disciples because we read in Matt 24:33 "so, YOU TOO, when YOU SEE all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door."

What things?

1. The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky
2. SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
3. The coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.
This is the short list...

But this is what confirms even the more, Matt 24:44 "For this reason YOU also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when YOU do not think He will."

Again, the YOU is Peter, James, John, and Andrew for sure.

Lastly re Paul, what i said was that the nations were never made disciples and you keep responding that Paul said the gospel was taught throughout the world. But my point was about the nations never being made into disciples and therefore Paul and the others kept preaching intensely well after he made his statement about the gospel being preached to the world. Because the nations were never made disciples even to this day.

steve7150, the text says disciple or teach all the nations, NOT make the nations disciples! But if you prefer"Disciple" this is illustrated in Acts 14:21, Acts 18:23, Acts 18:27, Acts 19:1, Acts 21:16 so therefore, either way, this snapshot supports the internal evidence to Paul's testimony in the following:

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Colossians 1:6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Are you to believe NO Disciples were consistently made as Acts testifies too? Really?

Yeshua said:

Matt 28:19 (your litmus test) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Mark 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

steve7150, if you can't yield to the internal evidence I've just shown you, then who's guilty of holding to a untenable presupposition?

God Bless.

[Paidion]

Brother steve7150, I don't know how many times I have to say this, I defend the inspiration of the NT Writers; the audience relevance as dictated TO THEM by The Holy Spirit...

Is this your view of inspiration? Verbal dictation? Clearly the words the NT writers wrote were in their own style, vocabulary, etc. Most who believe in the inspiration of the NT consider the authors to have been inspired rather than the words having been dictated to the authors. The idea that God dictated the words to them is not held by many people. If this is your view, you are the first person I've encountered who actually holds that view of inspiration and has expressed it in my hearing or reading.

[robbyyoung]

Brother steve7150, I don't know how many times I have to say this, I defend the inspiration of the NT Writers; the audience relevance as dictated TO THEM by The Holy Spirit...

Is this your view of inspiration? Verbal dictation? Clearly the words the NT writers wrote were in their own style, vocabulary, etc. Most who believe in the inspiration of the NT consider the authors to have been inspired rather than the words having been dictated to the authors. The idea that God dictated the words to them is not held by many people. If this is your view, you are the first person I've encountered who actually holds that view of inspiration and has expressed it in my hearing or reading.

Hi Paidon,

What are you talking about? How did you surmise "verbal dictation" from knowing who to address the promises of prophecy towards? Is this your attempt to find ways to disagree? No I don't believe every word was dictated to them in their writings. However, some of their testimony was a direct dictation to some extent.

Yeshua said, "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you"

or

Paul said, "For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ."

Writing in one's own style has nothing to do with repeating what The Holy Spirit revealed to them. I could care less how others attempt to discredit the testimony of these INSPIRED Writers. It's very simple why, because the knuckle-heads in this camp are 100% UNINSPIRED with no authority to re-interpret their understanding!

God Bless.

[steve7150]

steve7150, there is no dichotomy here. As Luke 17:22 states, "And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it."

This depicts and tells The Disciples that HIS parousia consist of not ONE day but a extended period of time, just as the term "parousia" entails. Next, this is describing the tribulation period The Disciples will undergo, and since Christ's judgments or "days" will still yet be future to them, they will simply desire it during this time, but WILL NOT see it. This is why they were to remain patient and faithful, not to run after so-called claims that Christ and one of HIS days are present (or judgment towards their persecutors). HE said, go not after them and then gives the sign of the lightning, because that's when they'll emphatically know.






Robby,
Again i compliment you on your ability to manage to give discourses on Preterism without actually answering my points.

I'm just going to summarize because i have not gotten specific answers for the most part,

luke 17.22 "The days will come" simply means the days after Jesus death when he is not with them. There is nothing more here unless you start out with a mission to look for any kind of speculation where you can read Preterism into anything.

Luke 17.26 "As it was in the days of Noah" , again i repeat the same unanswered point which was the suddenness of judgment verses the extended three year siege of Jerusalem. Totally opposite scenarios.

Luke 17.32 "Remember Lot's wife" Same theme, the suddenness of judgment

Luke 17.32 "One will be taken the other left" Suddenness of judgment


"No one knows the day or the hour except the Father". In 70AD a squirrel on a tree could see the day and hour as the Roman army marched toward Jerusalem

Matt 28.19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" NKJV Paul and others kept preaching after he said the gospel was preached throughout the world

[robbyyoung]

Robby,
Again i compliment you on your ability to manage to give discourses on Preterism without actually answering my points.

I'm just going to summarize because i have not gotten specific answers for the most part,

luke 17.22 "The days will come" simply means the days after Jesus death when he is not with them. There is nothing more here unless you start out with a mission to look for any kind of speculation where you can read Preterism into anything.

Luke 17.26 "As it was in the days of Noah" , again i repeat the same unanswered point which was the suddenness of judgment verses the extended three year siege of Jerusalem. Totally opposite scenarios.

Luke 17.32 "Remember Lot's wife" Same theme, the suddenness of judgment

Luke 17.32 "One will be taken the other left" Suddenness of judgment


"No one knows the day or the hour except the Father". In 70AD a squirrel on a tree could see the day and hour as the Roman army marched toward Jerusalem

Matt 28.19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations" NKJV Paul and others kept preaching after he said the gospel was preached throughout the world

steve7150,

I think we are wasting each others time. I have no idea how you are coming to the conclusion that I'm not answering your questions. I've not only answered them, but in detail. I believe I have falsified your claims to dichotomize "The Discourse" to some distance future time by proving ALL points that, "The Disciples" were to be in and around All said events. Therefore, NO dichotomy, and NO future fulfillment to the points addressed.

If The Disciples are put there by Yeshua, your claims are falsified and untenable. If we are going to continue discussing these things, may I suggest we simply deal with one question at a time.

God Bless.

[steve7150]

If The Disciples are put there by Yeshua, your claims are falsified and untenable. If we are going to continue discussing these things, may I suggest we simply deal with one question at a time.








Robby,
I think both our positions are clear and any interested readers can decide for themselves if they find any arguments persuasive.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

A few days ago Paidion posted the following:

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9 ESV)

The disciples saw Jesus go up into the clouds. Evidence that anyone saw Him return in the same way in 70 A.D. is ZILCH.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)

There is no evidence that ANY eye saw Him return in 70 A.D. or that even ONE tribe of the earth saw Him or wailed because of Him. Interpret "earth" as "land" and restrict it to the land near Jerusalem, if you wish. It makes no difference. Nobody saw Him. Why? Because He didn't return in 70 A.D. When He returns, it will be like the lighting (the sun) coming up from the east and shining to the west (Matt 24:27). When the sun rises in the east, shines all day, and sets in the west, EVERY EYE SEES IT. But again NO EYE saw Jesus return in 70 A.D.

I have been very interested in your response, but if you responded I missed it. You seem to take certain statements very literally regarding "near", "this generation", etc. Do you take the scriptures Paidion cited as literal? And if not, why not? If Jesus was seen, when did it occur during the three year siege of Jerusalem?

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

A few days ago Paidion posted the following:

And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9 ESV)

The disciples saw Jesus go up into the clouds. Evidence that anyone saw Him return in the same way in 70 A.D. is ZILCH.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. (Rev 1:7)

There is no evidence that ANY eye saw Him return in 70 A.D. or that even ONE tribe of the earth saw Him or wailed because of Him. Interpret "earth" as "land" and restrict it to the land near Jerusalem, if you wish. It makes no difference. Nobody saw Him. Why? Because He didn't return in 70 A.D. When He returns, it will be like the lighting (the sun) coming up from the east and shining to the west (Matt 24:27). When the sun rises in the east, shines all day, and sets in the west, EVERY EYE SEES IT. But again NO EYE saw Jesus return in 70 A.D.

I have been very interested in your response, but if you responded I missed it. You seem to take certain statements very literally regarding "near", "this generation", etc. Do you take the scriptures Paidion cited as literal? And if not, why not? If Jesus was seen, when did it occur during the three year siege of Jerusalem?

Hi Homer,

Rev. 1:7, Cloud Comings are judgment comings by use of an invading nation, in this case, The Roman Army against Israel and has nothing to do with a "wooden literalism" approach. The O.T. denotes how to properly interpret this metaphor. Therefore, since YAHWEH said these things were to happen quickly, and the Romans did in-fact destroy Israel, all that entails "every eye and wailing" did happen. The Child of God need no external evidence when the internal testimony declares it! I wasn't there and neither were any doubters. The internal evidence and testimony is what I go by.

Acts 1:9, happened in the unseen realm. YAHWEH qualified these men to see Yeshua's ascension. Though the text doesn't denote what time of day or how crowded in and around the site was, it wouldn't be far-fetched to believe others were around. If this was visible in the physical world, there would be no doubt that others would have seen it. I believe the unseen realm is were this return belongs, and those who witness these things were either raised from sheol, or raptured.

God Bless.

[Homer]

Hi Robby,

You wrote:

has nothing to do with a "wooden literalism" approach.

The problem I'm having is that the "wooden literalism" approach is used selectively (example: time statements), when it supports a certain paradigm, then when it doesn't fit the paradigm the figurative interpretation is used, as in:

Acts 1:9, happened in the unseen realm. YAHWEH qualified these men to see Yeshua's ascension. Though the text doesn't denote what time of day or how crowded in and around the site was, it wouldn't be far-fetched to believe others were around. If this was visible in the physical world, there would be no doubt that others would have seen it. I believe the unseen realm is were this return belongs, and those who witness these things were either raised from sheol, or raptured.

It seems that the paradigm is the determining factor as to when a particular method is used..

[robbyyoung]

Hi Homer,

Don't you think it's a bit silly to be debating "time statements" as anything but literal, given the complete context of The Revelation to a "literal" 7 Churches?

God sent this prophecy in its urgency and the 7 Churches weren't reading ANY time statements as cryptic, only the Hebrew metaphors.

Any reasonable person can see this, however, if a paradigm needs this to read as symbolic, they would have to test it against scripture and show where these time statements mean the exact opposite! Then explain the relevance to the 7 Churches, then explain all the other personal pronouns used throughout the N.T. placing people in the "end of the age" scenario.

Total confusion all because an idea says, The Revelation hasn't happened yet. But the Time Statements stand firm and the internal evidence supports it.

God bless.


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Robby Young
U.S. Army Retired