Regarding the numbering of the beast of Revelation 13:18

[canada]

Hello brother Paidion ... I am a new member.
You are an oldtimer like myself (82) and I noted that you have an understanding of Hebrew and Greek gematria (isophesia) etc. so thought I would post these findings for your critique.
calvin (canada)

Regarding the numbering of the beast of Rev 13:18.

It is important to note that God does not state the language or numeric system to be used.

Would a name like “Joe” … or “Bob” that summed at 666 be much of a biblical identifier for the final beast of Revelation?

How about … Tom … Dick … or Harry?

I am sure your answer to all of them would be no, and for good reason.
We are frequently told that the gematria to be used for solving the mystery of 666 must be to use… Hebrew … or Greek.

The drawback to using either of those systems is their high numeric values … Hebrew is from 1-400 … Greek is from 1-800.

The three letters of the television character “Mr T” sums at over 600.
Examples of Greek gematria … Jude=685 James=833 Simon=1100
Paul=781 Peter=755 … “John Doe” sums at close to 2000!

The ease at which Hebrew and/or Greek can arrive in the area of 600 and higher for short simple names as noted makes that system’s numeric identifying feature rather meaningless for a solid identification of the numbered (papal) beast of Revelation of these last days.

I believe God did not state the language to be used to solve this mathematical mystery because that language was not in existence in the day of John of Patmos.

I believe that language to be the world recognized language of these last days … English.

Using the most simple gematria, wherin … A=1 .. B=2 .. C=3 … Z=26.

In over 35 years examining biblical suspects only one arrived at the 666 sum … it is that difficult using that simple system. Why? Because it requires a minimum of 26 letters to produce 666 and 25 of them would have to be “Z”. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzp = 666

Common biblical sense plus past and present identifying Bible prophecy information … and this greatly increased factor of difficulty, using such a numeric system should enhance our ability to minimize error and solve the mystery.

Can I offer mathematical evidence that simple English gematria is the unstated language to be used for solving Rev 13:18? Yes.

The following examples use this simple system of … A=1 … Z=26.

JESUS = 74
Y’SHUA = 74
JOSHUA = 74
JEWISH = 74
MESSIAH = 74

He died on the cross, preached the gospel and spoke in parables.

CROSS = 74
GOSPEL = 74
PARABLES = 74

He is The King, The Omega and offered himself as A Sacrifice.

THE KING = 74
THE OMEGA = 74
A SACRIFICE = 74

Do you think it a “coincidence” that using simple English gematria these examples would sum at 74?

SIMPLE = 74
ENGLISH = 74
GEMATRIA = 74

There are many biblical examples I could include, but here is one that is relative to the numbering of the 666 beast.

I am sure that most will recall that the original 6 “Roman” Numerals
I V X L C D = 666

Using simple English gematria for these same letters results in:

I=9 V=22 X=24 L=12 C=3 D=4 … = 74

Here is wisdom. Let he who hath understanding count … … …

God’s “OTHER” two witnesses in the Hebrew Shema Dt 6:4.

3,500 years ago, (3 ½ “days” ago according to God’s reckoning Ps 90)
God inspired Moses to place an unusual literal sign to the Jew in the Hebrew of their Shema.

Many, if not most Jews are unaware of these two witnesses existence, but Rabbi Bochin states that together, they form an “eternal witness”.

There are 11 examples of extra large (majuscule) letters in Torah, but
only once do two ever occur together, and this is in their Shema.

shemA Israel jehovah elohenu jehovah echaD

These unusually large letters are … ‘ain the eye (witness) and daleth the door … (some say folding door).

Here oh Israel, the Lord thy God is One. The Jew does not believe in the trinity and yet this word One (echad) is in the plural form, not singular.

I believe this is a sign to the Jew that Y’shua=74 Jesus=74 is their Jewish=74 Messiah=74 that they rejected.

Together, ‘Ain and Daleth form the Hebrew numerical value … … 74

The English numerical value of ‘Ain and Daleth also produces … 74
Two coincidences?

I am not claiming that these two letter signs are the two witnesses of Revelation 11, but that chapter does start out to “measure” or count and that “fire” is associated with them … … PYRO=74

And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified … and after 3 ½ “days” the spirit of life entered them. Rev 11:8

To the Jew (reading right to left) the two Hebrew letters appear as … DE
To the Gentile (reading left to right) they appear as … AD

Together, they appear as … … DE AD

They have lain there “as dead” for three and a half thousand years since the day that God inspired Moses to place them there.

In 1948 Israel became a nation and Hebrew came back to life, for most Jews at that time did not know how to read or write Hebrew.

Note that that “great city” was spiritually called Sodom and Egypt where “also” our Lord was crucified. Why was “also” added?

Most automatically look for a negative connotation because of the words Sodom and Egypt, but note that SODOM=66 and that is the number of books in our “great city” the Bible, where also our Lord was (recorded) crucified.

Note also, that the original Greek spelling is AEgypt … … AEGYPT = 74

There is much more numerical and biblical evidence that could be presented, but my main point was to show the inadequacy of using the gematria of Hebrew and/or Greek as an identifier because such very short names can sum in the area of 600 or more … and, God did not state the language to be used.

I then provided some biblical and numerical evidence that pointed to English (a language common to much of the world) as being the unstated language to be used to “count the number” of the beast of Revelation, and that in 35 years of examining biblical suspects, only one arrived at that sum … it is that difficult using that simple system.

Now for the meat. I am not a futurist …there may be another individual that will yet come on the scene to fulfill the prophecy.

However, a very dynamic world renown religious/political personage did come on the world scene and he did ride a white horse as noted in Rev 6:2, and he did have a very distinctive “bow” as noted in the Greek of that passage and it was not a “weapon” as claimed by some expositors.

He also had a very distinctive “crown” as noted in the Greek of that passage, and it was unlike any of the gold and silver metal crowns of Europe and his titled name did sum at 666 using that most difficult system to arrive at that sum.

He also represented the “image” of someone who had previously died, and he displayed a distinctive mark on his right hand and forehead as did his followers as noted in Rev 13.

I will freely divulge the above information, but as “watchmen on the wall”, and students of prophecy, do you recall this historical event?

ccc

[Paidion]

Hi Calvin,

You ask me to critique your post. I don't feel qualified to do that.
I AM a futurist of the type known as a "historic pre-millenialist". I think that the number 666 is to be calculated with Greek characters as did Irenæus (120-202 A.D.) He offered several Greek names which added to 666, but indicated that these were mere suggestions and that no one would know until the time came for the man of sin to be revealed to the world. You wrote:

I am sure that most will recall that the original 6 “Roman” Numerals
I V X L C D = 666

I found this interesting. I had never encountered this before.
Another interesting fact is that the letters of the Greek name "ιησους" (Jesus) add to 888.
I often wondered whether that had some significance.
I've heard it said that 777 is the number of perfection. 666 is short of perfection. And 888 surpasses perfection.

[canada]

Thank you for your comments Paidion.
I too was a futurist for ten years ... my books by futurist authors stack higher than myself!

I tried to post the Hebrew text of the Shema to show those two large letters but was unsuccessful.

If as you believe, the beast is to be counted using Greek, that would eliminate me for I am unlearned in Hebrew and Greek.

Regarding Rev 11 where it notes that "great city" is spiritually called Sodom and AEgypt.
I recall at least one expositor suggesting that the word sodom may be derived from ... sodi ...
meaning "secret".

As you note, Iesous summing at 888 surely had to be pre designed.
Another "coincidence" ... the following examples use A=1 ... Z=26

IMMANUEL = 88
GOD IS ONE = 88
LIKE A LION = 88
PASCHAL LAMB = 88


Please note that Immanuel is spelt with an "I" in ... Isaiah 8:8
But with an "E" in ... Matthew ... 1:23

One who arranges things alphabetically (like the acrostic verses) is called an
ABCEDARIUS = 88

ACROSTIC = 88
VERSES = 88

[canada]

Would someone be able to display the Hebrew Shema from the Masoretic text (Deut 6:4) so as to display Moses' two "large letter" signs indicating "eternal witness" and which I believe to be a numerical sign from our Father, signifying Jesus (Y'shua) as their (and our) Messiah?

Correction ... ABECEDARIUS = 88

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[canada]

Thanks diszerner for the Hebrew text "Shema".
Here is the historic event I described.

Some CONCLUSIONS in my old age.

I believe there are some here young enough to witness God’s ever burning destruction of Mystery, Babylon as noted in Rev 18.

That great city that has reigned over kings of the earth.
Sorry brothers, but when that occurs, I believe some full and partial preterists and futurists will be rewriting their eschatological scenarios.

That city is none other than Vatican City. It’s very foundation is formed upon volcanic rock.

I believe a few key prophecies came to pass in recent years. These things occurred in view of the world, but for some reason, students, and our prophecy experts did not recognize them as such.

I speak of the rider on the first white horse of Rev 6:2.
We were warned of great deception during the last days, and if possible even the very elect would be deceived.

White is usually associated with purity, and that was the deception.

I speak of the amazing popularity and charisma of Pope John Paul II.
A most influential leader of the century. A man who spearheaded the downfall of Communism.

Literally, the whole world followed after him … and not only Roman Catholics. The crowds for this “Rock Star of the Vatican” were historically unprecedented. Religious and political leaders extolled his virtues. Those who recognized him as “anti” Christ were shunned, for who would call such a “saintly” person as being anti or opposed to Christ.

I remind the reader that the Greek word “anti” can also mean “in place of” …or … “instead of” … Christ. This is one of the papal claims … the pope claims to be the “Vicar” of Christ” … vicarious … in place of Christ.

When JP II toured the USA, former President Carter greeted him with “God blessed America by sending you to us.” Billy graham stated: “He’s the most respected religious leader in the world today.”

He appeared in his flowing white robes … riding upon his white horse called the Popemobile. Not only was this a mechanical “horse” but it was a converted white Ford … “bronco”.

Our “watchmen on the wall” were looking in the wrong direction and did not recognize “anti” Christ when he arrived, just as the religious leaders of Israel did not recognize the prophesied Christ when He appeared.

If John of Patmos was given this actual vision, would it not be reasonable for him to refer to this person as a rider on a “white horse”?

And biblically, what else were we told about this rider?

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. Rev 6:2.

Note that this crown is not on his head. Whereas in Rev 19 Jesus has many crowns and they are on His Head. Rev 19:12.

The identifying key for this passage is the bow and the crown.
Surprisingly, some scholars of prophecy have actually referred to this bow as … a weapon. You likely have read that claim.

Those who were looking for a military type 666 beast erred in reasoning that the bow was a weapon. Of the five NT occurrences, four of them mean to bend or to “bow down”. That was JP II’s distinguishing trademark. Upon his arrival at the host country, he would “bow” to the ground and kiss it.

The fifth and final occurrence of this word is found in our verse under discussion … the rider with bow and crown.

Oddly enough, its use in this particular verse means neither “weapon” nor to “bow” down.

This particular “bow” is from the Greek form meaning … cloth.
This rider on the white horse is a … “man of the cloth”.

The specific word “crown” of this rider is from the Greek “stepho” meaning to “twine or wreathe”.

This rider on the white horse of religion is in some way associated with “cloth” that is “wreathed”.

The specific “crown” of this particular rider on the white horse is a perfect description of the papal … “Triple Tiara” or “Triple Crown”.

This crown is unlike any of the solid gold or silver crowns of Europe.
According to the New Educator Encyclopedia Vol 9 pg 3575 and other sources, it is … “weaved of cloth of gold”.

Not only that, but it is claimed by some Protestants that at one time this “Triple Crown” displayed the Latin phrase “Vicar of Christ” on it, and that phrase in Latin summed at … 666.

You will recall that the 6 Latin letters … I V X L C D also sum at 666.
Naturally, those with their head in the sand will say all these things are mere coincidence.

And the great city (Vatican City) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. Rev 16:19.

The Vatican Kingdom’s “Triple Crown” signifies her triple authority:

1. on earth
2. in heaven
3. in hell

Will Christianity recognize the numbered beast of Revelation?

If all scripture concerning his identity was meant to be understood literally, it would seem that he would be easily recognized. However, scripture makes it clear that the whole world will be deceived (and if possible) even the very elect. If his presence is so veiled that Christians could be deceived, we should be ready and receptive to accepting “some” spiritual interpretation for some points of identification.

He will be a man, an actual personality and have a number.

Alexander Hislop, noted author of “The Two Babylons” indicates (pg 271)
That the sense these words have been generally understood is that he will be called by a name that has been borne by some individual man before.

Hislop is mystified by this for he states: “But surely this would be nothing very distinctive – nothing that might not equally apply to innumerable names”.

In most situations this identifying point would be rather meaningless, but with reference to the papacy, this becomes a perfect fulfillment.

For the first time in papal history, a pope took a “double name”.
John Paul … he lasted 33 days and mysteriously died … some say murdered … but miracle upon miracle John Paul came “back to life” in the form of John Paul II.

Not only did John Paul II claim the name of a previous person who had died, but he and every pope claim to be The IMAGE and Successor of Peter.

There is a real Peter and a real Mary … and then there is the blasphemous distortion that Rome has done to them.

A few subtle clues from our Lord about the (future) Peter.
Peter “counted” the 153 fish in John 21:11 even though Jesus did not tell anyone to do that.
Saul was changed to Paul … “Peter” was added.

The word “peter” is small stone, and small stones were used for “adding or counting” during biblical times.

There is a mathematical reason why Jesus chose to place 153 fish in the net for Peter to count, but that is a story for another time.

Who did Jesus call “Satan” other than Satan? Yes, (future) Peter
Peter’s “death” in his “old age” will glorify God. John 21
The destruction of Mystery Babylon, Vatican City will glorify God.
Jesus asked Peter three times … do you love me?
But go your way, tell his disciples … and Peter … … Mark 16:7

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. John 21:18.

Are you old enough to remember when popes were literally carried?
There are even Roman Catholic theologians that believe the Bible indicates that their own church becomes apostate in the last days.

In Saint Peter’s Bascilica there exists a larger than life size bronze image (supposedly of Peter) that is revered and bowed to, and has had its toe kissed so many times that it is almost worn away. Is this not idol worship in its worst form? Perhaps not its worst form, for the same is done with the statues of Mary. John Paul II bowed down to the statue of Mary and actually thanked … it … for saving his life.

Daniel told us he would be “stronger” than his predecessors.
Few would deny that the “man from Poland” was stronger than his predecessors. This charismatic “superstar of the Vatican” captivated the world as no other religious leader before him. If success is rated by power and popularity, then John Paul I I sat at the pinnacle.

He will not regard the desire of women. Dan 11:37

He will be raised in obscurity when suddenly he shall appear to the world and receive its adulation and worship.

He will pass for the most virtuous of men and will conquer (destroy) through a program of “peace”. Dan 8:25

He desires to bring the religions of the world under his dominion and authority. He is a deceiver, blasphemer and impostor for he will claim to be or represent God. 2 Thess 2:4.

During his reign there would be an alliance of ten kingdoms or horns. That being the 1983 ten member nations of the European Economic Community. His kingdom comes up AMONG the ten … not in addition to them. Dan 7:8.

His kingdom is smaller and different … it is a “little horn”. Dan 7:8, 24.

By authority or persuasion he subdues three of these horns, but seven willingly consent to his (religious) authority. Seven of those ten EEC nations were predominantly Roman Catholic, 2 Protestant and one Greek Orthodox.

Some of these points were gleaned from the writings of Robert Gromacki.
“Are These The Last Days”?

Daniel told us that this little horn would not stay at home. John Paul II was the most traveled pope in the history of the Roman Church.

Daniel also told us that he would “have arms at his side”. Dan 11:31.

I originally thought this meant arms as in weapons, but on closer examination of this Hebrew word, it means arms “outstretched”. That was John Paul II’s distinguishing trademark sign … he would raise his arms in the shape of an upright bow encouraging the adulation from his followers and the world.

Again, where were our watchmen on the wall? Were they only looking to the past … or to the future? How true the words … if possible even the very elect would be deceived.

The identifying “mark of the beast on right hand and/or forehead”.
This is the RC “sign of the cross” introduced around 300AD always displayed with the right hand and placed upon the forehead of the infant followers of the beast at their baptism with the right hand of the priest and on Ash Wednesdays, the thumb of the right hand of the priest is dipped into the ashes and then places the identifying mark on the forehead of the adult followers of the beast.

This is where the term “being under the thumb” originated.

There is an identifying “image” of the beast.
We know that each and every pope is the “image” and successor of Peter, but consider also that Imperial Rome had a “Pontifex Maximus” or high priest … and the religious leader of Rome also has this same title, being an authoritative image of the first beast.

There is an identifying “number of the beast and it is 666.

I take no blame for this, but a Messianic website (Worldwide Witness) stated that John Paul II’s name in Hebrew summed at 666.
YWhNn PWLWs SNY = 666

Another website stated it summed at 666 in Latin.
IONES PAVLVS SECVNDO = 666

I am familiar with SIMPLE = 74 ENGLISH = 74 GEMATRIA = 74
wherein A = 1 … Z = 26

JESUS = 74
Y’SHUA = 74
JOSHUA = 74
JEWISH = 74
MESSIAH = 74

“Habemus Papen” … We have a pope … “Qui sibi nomen imposuit JOANNES PAULUS SECUNDUS.”

He has chosen the name JOHN PAUL SECOND

On October 16, 1978 history was made and prophecy fulfilled.
At 6:44 pm.

KAROL CARDINAL WOJTYLA ARCHBISHOP OF KRAKOW
became
POPE JOHN PAUL THE SECOND

KAROL= 57
CARDINAL=62
WOJTYLA= 106
ARCHBISHOP=99
OF=21
KRAKOW=79
424

became

POPE=52
JOHN=47
PAUL=50
THE=33
SECOND=60
242 ... ... ... ... ... 424 + 242 = 666


The first John Paul died by a mortal wound (some say murdered).
The second John Paul “came to life” and the whole world wondered after the “beast” … the “Primate” of Rome.

And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth … … … … … … And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eigthth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev 17 9-11.

The first beast (Imperial Rome) was of the seven hills of Rome.

The second beast or False Prophet (vatic) is across the river from the seven … even he (it) is the eighth, and yet is of the seven, for the great whore and her “Pontifex Maximus” sits upon the eighth hill, Vaticanus Hill.

I had asked if any may have recognized this historical event from some of the description I gave … … for Rome Watchers (and historicists) it was called “The Year Of Three Popes”.

ccc

[Paidion]

So you have all of this "numerological evidence" that John Paul II was the Antichrist.

I recall (when I was 10 or 12 years old) reading a tract which had very convincing evidence that Adolph Hitler was the Antichrist.

This type of "proof" will doubtless continue on and on, being applied to person after person until the real Antichrist appears on the scene.
When that occurs, there will be no more doubt.

[canada]

Yes brother … the list for the beast of Revelation has gone on … and on … and on. By the way, I was not alone in that observation.

I am sure you are not a lover of the Church of Peter, but I did, in honesty, present some evidence … not proof … and it was definitely not all numerical evidence.

I hope that some of the post was informative about that organization.

If we are full or hyper literalists, it would be pretty hard to miss the beast wouldn’t it?

And yet we are told … if possible even the very elect would be deceived.
Naturally that would not include you or I would it? (Canadian humour)

As I noted, if God destroys that great city Mystery, Babylon tomorrow, there will be more than a few “experts” re-examining their prophetic predictions … saying, how can this be … where is the mark, where is the image, where is this beast that is supposed to die and yet come back to life?

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Paidion]

I see it that way also, dizerner.

"Canada", you are right that I am not a lover of the RC Church. Yet I respect some of its teachings. But I can say the same about a multitude of other groups.

When I discovered the truth about the enabling grace of God from Titus 2, I rejoiced. I had never heard that truth from evangelical or fundamentalist churches. To them the grace of God was his "unmerited favour" and nothing more. Its true that God's grace is unmerited and that He does the favour of granting it to those whom He saves from sin.
But it is so much more:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

Later on, in searching for those who taught this enabling grace, I found this teaching in only two places: 1) In a Mennonite publication and 2)in a Roman Catholic catechism book for young people.