Does God love all people unconditionally?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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robbyyoung
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:57 am

mattrose wrote:God IS love.

The only way for God to cease to love someone is for God to cease to exist.

Neither is logically possible.
Hi Matt, I hope you're not getting frustrated, however, God IS NOT a one string instrument, e.g. "love", for us to play. This mentality will prove all sorts of contradictions to the biblical account and actions perpetrated by GOD HIMSELF on humanity. God is LOVE (1 John 4:8), but He's much more than that! Consider the following:

God is, or -

1. Good (Ps. 31:19)
2. Severe (Rom. 11:22)
3. Hates the wicked (Ps. 5:5-6)
4. A consuming fire (Heb. 12:29)
5. A Righteous Judge (Ps. 7:11)
6. Jealous, Avenging, and Wrathful towards His enemies (Nahum 1:2)
7. Faithful (1 Cor 1:9)

Matt, as I'm sure you know, this is a SHORT LIST compared to all of what GOD IS, as described in His Word. Therefore since God is LOVE, He must love to be Good, Severe, Angry, Righteous, Wrathful, Jealous, Avenging, Hateful towards His enemies and find no pleasure in the death of the wicked!

God DOES NOT allow us to take His place in such matters of vengeance, wrath, and hatred of our enemies. Therefore, we don't, but He does!

God Bless.

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Paidion
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by Paidion » Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:46 am

Homer wrote:When John wrote "God is love" did he mean that statement to be a total summation of God's character?
YES!
Where does God's holiness, wrath, and sovereignty fit in?
God only is pure LOVE. Therefore God is holy, that is, in the sense of pure LOVE, He is separate from everything else. No one else has pure love, but love with other characteristics mixed in.

God's wrath is directed against sin, and against sinful people. He carries out that wrath by working toward people's repentance. Sometimes that requires unpleasant consequences for sinners, but whenever God can bring about repentance and submission without such consequences, He will do it.

God is ultimately sovereign, since the divine plan of the ages is to reconcile all to Himself, and He will do whatever is necessary to bring that about. However, He is not presently sovereign over all the earth in the sense that every event occurs in order to fulfill some divine purpose. As I see it, to suggest that human atrocities are God's "permissive will" in order to bring out a deeper purpose—is blasphemy against God and his totally loving character.
Can all the statements about God's wrath in the scriptures be fit into the concept of love (benevolent action)?
God's wrath not only "fits into" the concept of love but it expresses that love. Even human wrath toward one's child can express love—the desire to see that child behave and live a righteous and joyful life. How much more will God in the execution of his wrath do the same for all of humanity.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:17 pm

john6809 wrote:Robby, are you saying Jesus didn't die for the Pharisees? I think it's clear that people do "things" that cause God to "hate" them. I don't think that He just hates them for the sake of hating them.
Hi john6809, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, however, to this very day and beyond, many die in their sins! Why? Because they are unrepentant in their being. A Child of God could repent from murder, stealing, lies, etc.. acts clearly hated by God. But the unrepentant DOES NOT have this same benefit being alienated from God, and hated of God. Why? Because he is an enemy of God.
john6809 wrote:I don't know if you have children - I do. Sometimes I hate what they do but I have never hated them. I realize I am an imperfect human father and God is, well, not. But for me to hate my children would take a bigger miracle (not a good one) than I have ever experienced (aside from salvation.)
This is a presuppositional statement assuming that everyone born of man is God's Child. This IS NOT what God says! John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," verses the rest of mankind, Ephesians 2:3 "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
john6809 wrote:As far as the prayer Jesus says for His disciples in John 17, nowhere does He indicate that He never prayed for unbelievers. In this particular passage, He is only praying for them and only for specific things. That doesn't mean He always did so. Otherwise, did He establish a pattern we should follow? I often pray for unbelievers - not that He would keep them in His name, since they are not In His name, but that they would soon be found in His name.
Excuse me??? This is a prayer concerning elements of SALVATION! It went beyond The Disciples, John 17:20-21. So NO, this includes EVERYBODY who would become saved, therefore, Yeshua exempts ALL THOSE who remain in unbelief, hence, HE DOES NOT pray for THEM. This correlates perfectly with the Father's will, John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Again, what we are told to do, and what God knows and does are two separate issues concerning responsibilities. We simply and faithfully do what He says, and let Him be GOD!

God bless.

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steve
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by steve » Sat Sep 20, 2014 4:34 pm

This is a presuppositional statement assuming that everyone born of man is God's Child. This IS NOT what God says! John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name," verses the rest of mankind, Ephesians 2:3 "Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest."
First of all, that men are all children of God is in fact what the Bible says—but it is not the only thing the Bible says on the subject. There is a difference between an estranged son and one who remains on good terms with his father. The former is not in line for the inheritance of the father's estate (and, in that sense alone, is not a "son"). The story of the prodigal seems to imply that the estranged son was still loved by his father, but had cut himself off from every benefit of that sonship by rebellion. When he repented, the father did not say, "Here comes my enemy's son, defecting to my camp." He said "My son was lost, but is now found!" While he was lost (according to Jesus) he was nonetheless his father's son.

We must remember how many ways the father/son language is used in scripture. Jubal was "the father of" all who play stringed instruments. In that sense (though in no other!), I am one of his "sons." Some are said to be "children of the devil" in contrast to "children of God." This, however, speaks of moral affinity, not, necessarily, family lineage (since the devil has no offspring among humans). Even the expression "children of wrath" (like the similar, "son of perdition") is a Hebraism—not intended to identify anyone's origin (wrath did not give birth to anyone), but, rather, one's inheritance (that is, one's destiny).

That all people are truly God's children, by virtue of creation (origin) is declared in scripture:

Have we not one Father?
Has not one God created us?

(Mal.2:10)

"As also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' Therefore, since we are the offspring of God..."
(Acts 17:28-29)

Thomas Allin wrote (quite well, I think), "We are told God is not the Father of all men; He is only their Creator! What a total misapprehension these words imply. What do we mean by paternity and the obligations it brings? The idea rests essentially on the communication of life to the child by the parent... assuming all the responsibility involved in the very act of creating a reasonable immortal spirit."

Since the language of paternity is used so variously throughout scripture, we must not allow one set of statements cancel out the teaching of others. To say "that the universal fatherhood of God" is "not what God says" is to fail to take all that the Bible says on the subject into consideration and to focus on only one narrow set of statements to the exclusion of others.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:15 pm

steve wrote:Since the language of paternity is used so variously throughout scripture, we must not allow one set of statements cancel out the teaching of others. To say "that the universal fatherhood of God" is "not what God says" is to fail to take all that the Bible says on the subject into consideration and to focus on only one narrow set of statements to the exclusion of others.
Hi Steve,

Thanks for the response which outlines The Creator's position over His creatures. Therefore, I should have stated more clearly, "...everyone born of man is God's Child through moral affinity." This was my intent.

God Bless.

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john6809
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by john6809 » Sat Sep 20, 2014 9:32 pm

Robby,

Steve got there before I did. And was much more thorough than I could have been. I was merely going to point out Paul's statement in Acts 17.

Moral affinity or other, it doesn't make sense logically (to me) that God could hate billions of people and yet, still desire for them to be saved. That desire speaks of a love (of a sort) for ALL of His creation, not just those who have believed.

That we, who are saved, enjoy a special relationship with Him seems obvious enough. I was simply trying to point out that God does not hate anybody just for the sake of hating them. They have "done" something. Therefore, I think it is more accurate than you may think to say, "God loves the sinner but hates the sin." I realize that Homer said that, but that is the gist of your argument against Matt that I was responding to.



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Homer
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by Homer » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:04 pm

john6809 wrote:
Moral affinity or other, it doesn't make sense logically (to me) that God could hate billions of people and yet, still desire for them to be saved. That desire speaks of a love (of a sort) for ALL of His creation, not just those who have believed.
And the question still remains, can God ever stop loving a particular person?

Steve wrote:
Since the language of paternity is used so variously throughout scripture, we must not allow one set of statements cancel out the teaching of others. To say "that the universal fatherhood of God" is "not what God says" is to fail to take all that the Bible says on the subject into consideration and to focus on only one narrow set of statements to the exclusion of others.
It seems to me that God only has one actual Son and those who are Christ's are children by adoption, as Paul says. Yet His adopted children can fall away, lose their inheritance, and no longer be His children. On the other hand, every person born into this world, we are told, are God's children and can never not be. Their relationship to God is superior to the believer.

I think more is being made of this father/son or daughter relationship than the scriptures intended.

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mattrose
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by mattrose » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:42 pm

psimmond wrote:mattrose,
I suspect many on this forum are here because at some point we realized the pat answers we were fed from the pulpit weren't very convincing since they often ignored verses that argued against them (or just dismissed verses by saying, "They really don't mean what they say"). So while I understand what you are saying about nuance, your argument would carry a lot more weight if you would attempt to offer proof that these words are as flexible as you claim. For example, do you know of places in scripture (or even in ancient writings) where the Greek verb agapao means something other than love?
I'm not ignoring other verses (I presented an interpretation of each of the verses you raised question about).

Nor am I dismissing them by saying 'they really don't mean what they say'. I am saying that there are 2 factors that, when applied, help us to know what those verses actually say. For one, we have the 'context' factor. Some of statements just don't lend themselves to the interpretation you are wondering about when read in context. My argument doesn't rest on agape meaning something other than love. It rests on the word being defined more by its context than by its dictionary definition. For two, I use a Jesus hermeneutic. Jesus is the full revelation of God, so without apology I allow what I know about Jesus to clarify what isn't entirely clear about God in other parts of Scripture.

You might say that's reading INTO the text. I say that's reading it as a Christian.

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steve
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by steve » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:43 pm

Yet His adopted children can fall away, lose their inheritance, and no longer be His children. On the other hand, every person born into this world, we are told, are God's children and can never not be. Their relationship to God is superior to the believer.
I think it would help for you to read my previous post again. I'm pretty sure you missed my point.

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mattrose
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Re: Does God love all people unconditionally?

Post by mattrose » Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:52 pm

robbyyoung wrote:Hi Matt, I hope you're not getting frustrated
Not at all, I don't mind being right over and over again :)
however, God IS NOT a one string instrument, e.g. "love", for us to play. This mentality will prove all sorts of contradictions to the biblical account and actions perpetrated by GOD HIMSELF on humanity. God is LOVE (1 John 4:8), but He's much more than that! Consider the following:

God is, or -

1. Good (Ps. 31:19)
2. Severe (Rom. 11:22)
3. Hates the wicked (Ps. 5:5-6)
4. A consuming fire (Heb. 12:29)
5. A Righteous Judge (Ps. 7:11)
6. Jealous, Avenging, and Wrathful towards His enemies (Nahum 1:2)
7. Faithful (1 Cor 1:9)

Matt, as I'm sure you know, this is a SHORT LIST compared to all of what GOD IS, as described in His Word.
No. God IS love. I have no problem understanding everything on that list as expressions of God's love. Love seeks the good of others. Love deals severely with that which is harmful to others. Love can even be said to hate the wicked (what they have become and what they are doing). Love purifies and consumes. Love confronts evil. Love defends its relationships. Love disciplines. Love is loyal.

If we want to know what God is like... we need look nowhere else but Jesus. And if we want to describe Jesus in 1 word, it is love (defined in Him).
God DOES NOT allow us to take His place in such matters of vengeance, wrath, and hatred of our enemies. Therefore, we don't, but He does!
What is our best ever portrait of God?

Is it not Jesus?

Did Jesus hate his enemies?

Why would you choose to silence the clearest portrait and highlight the blurry one?

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