Would you bet on the spiral?

[Homer]

Well, we all go around with our blinders on. For example, some say God is love (which is true) as though this sums up in total the nature of God. Others insist that His chief characteristic is holiness. So which is correct? How many statements in scripture directly support one and how many the other (you may be surprised)? Or are both equally true?

Note: For those unfamiliar with blinders, they do not "blind" horses but limit or focus the vision of the horse. We put blinders on ourselves, and our favorite teachers can do it for us (not aimed at anyone in particular).

[Paidion]

Well, we all go around with our blinders on. For example, some say God is love (which is true) as though this sums up in total the nature of God. Others insist that His chief characteristic is holiness. So which is correct? How many statements in scripture directly support one and how many the other (you may be surprised)? Or are both equally true?

The difference is that love and holiness are consistent, whereas love and vengeance are not. A loving human being could also be holy at the same time. But he couldn't be loving and vengeful simultaneously. Of course, human beings can be loving one day and vengeful the next. People are often inconsistent in character. God is not.

[steve]

One who avenges wrongs done to another—especially if he is an agent of the criminal justice system—is not acting vengefully, but justly and mercifully to the wronged party.

You have mistakenly assumed that God's "vengeance" is a reference to His avenging Himself. He said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," which Paul interpreted to mean that we needn't avenge wrongs against ourselves, since God has promised to settle those scores (Romans 12).

There is no inconsistency between a judge who is loving, on the one hand, and who avenges injustices done against widows and orphans, for example, on the other (Psalm 68:5; 82:3; Isa.1:23; Mal.3:5; Luke 18:3, 5).

The inconsistency lies in one's reading some passages of scripture and concluding they are reliable, while culling out the ones that he doesn't understand or with which he is unsympathetic, and claiming them to be unreliable.

[Paidion]

One who avenges wrongs done to another—especially if he is an agent of the criminal justice system—is not acting vengefully, but justly and mercifully to the wronged party.

Although some think God acts similarly to an agent of the criminal justice system, I see that as an error. Yes, one can find retributive justice being assinged to God in the Hebrew scriptures, where the character of God was not fully revealed. But Jesus came to reveal the Father as He truly is. His justice is not based on legality "If you do the crime, you do the time." Rather God's justice is restorative justice. (See my signature statement). Even human courts are beginning to move from retributive justice to restorative justice. Books are being written on the benefits of the latter, not only to the one who committed the crime, but also the the victim(s) of the crime. No amount of punishment "satisfies" victims. But repentance on the part of the criminal, evidenced by restitution (to the degree possible) has frequently resulted in forgiveness and reconciliation. See Howard Zehr's definition of "restorative justice" in a short talk (less than 5 minutes):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZJzMTw9UNw
Howard also wrote a book entitled "Changing Lenses" in which he shows the desirability for all concerned to switch paradigms from that of retributive justice to that of restorative justice. Indeed, in one of the chapters Brother Zehr affirms that "covenant justice" is the Biblical alternative to retributive justice. For those interested, the book can be purchased from Amazon for $10.89.
http://www.amazon.com/Changing-Lenses-F ... 0836135121
If you go to the Amazon site, you can also look inside the book and read parts of it.

You have mistakenly assumed that God's vengeance is to avenge Himself. He said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay," which Paul interpreted to mean that we needn't avenge wrongs against ourselves, since God has promised to settle those scores.

No. I haven't presumed that at all. The Greek word translated as "vengeance" literally means "out of justice". My online lexicon says that it refers to "doing justice to all parties". Indeed, this lexicon indicates that the verbal form can mean to vindicate, to protect or defend one person from another.

The NKJV translates the word as "vindication" in the following passage:

For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.


It could hardly be translated as "What vengeance!" since Paul asked them to forgive the erring brother, rather than wreak vengeance upon him. Rather the Corinthians themselves were vindicated in their actions by which they forge the sinning brother in response to his repentance.

There is no inconsistency between a judge who is loving, on the one hand, and who avenges injustices done against widows and orphans, for example (Psalm 68:5; 82:3; Isa.1:23; Mal.3:5; Luke 18:3, 5).

Change the phrase "avenges injustices against widows and orphans" to "defends widows and orphans against injustice" and I'll agree. Of course an offender must be dealt with, both to prevent repetition his injustice and to be corrected, and he should be required to make restitution. But he should not be merely penalized out of vengeance.

In addition, the "loving judge" analogy doesn't work because any judge is legally obligated to sentence criminals. God isn't under a legal system, though some think "He is obligated to carry out his own legal system." Jesus certainly didn't feel such an obligation when he forgave the woman caught in adultery.

[Jepne]

Revelation - Ellen White, Joseph Smith and others have had revelations. Whether from God or not, it bore out with time.

I asked an elder about being a conscientious objector, he said "Fine, just be prepared to accept the consequences." A friend of mine was disturbed about some things she was seeing in the Bible because it shook up her thinking. A friend advised her, "Whatever you think God is saying, go with it, with an open mind, and see where it leads."

************
I always thought the word 'vengeance' meant getting back at someone for my own self-satisfaction.
God is love - but what kind of love, and how does it manifest itself? Love must be based in righteousness, holiness, or it is only sentimental emotion. Love for a child may provoke one to minister severe consequences that the child would consider to be hateful and mean, but too bad, it is for the child's ultimate good (not necessarily the rod, but perhaps a word of wisdom that cuts deep). If I don't confront my child's evil, my love for him is only sentiment, and in a sense, I am putting the child before God. Idolatry.

My hope for those who have done me wrong is not that the 'score be settled' by them suffering, because I am positive they will suffer in proportion to what they have done, but my hope is that they will be changed by their suffering and bring glory to God in their lives.

Jesus did not come to send us to heaven or hell, but to enable and empower us to choose the righteous over the carnal and evil. Heaven and hell are the consequences of our choices. With great care in His heart, He gave us many warnings.