Open Theism and Determinism

[steve7150]

true love requires choice.













Agreed except that in this age IMHO most people are like children and not capable of making eternal decisions. I see this age more of a learning time then an eternal decision making time. However for those who see it, today is indeed the day of salvation.

[mattrose]

Even if we grant that most people (perhaps all people) are not capable of making an 'eternal choice' during this lifetime, that by no means renders the choices that we do make in the here and now irrelevant to our eternal destinies. Our choices are steps toward or away from God, no matter if they are ultimate or irreversible.

[Paidion]

Steve, what you are saying seems to indicate that God WANTED Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Is that what you believe?

Yes Paidion and i know you have a very different view. I'm trying to interpret based on the facts and circumstances and not by any ideology. If you think i misunderstood anything, please let me know.

I don't have any special "ideology" except that which has arisen from "facts and circumstances".

God placed two special trees in Eden: The Tree of Life and The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. God forbade Adam and Eve to eat from the second tree. To disobey was to sin. God never wants anyone to sin. God didn't forbid them to eat from the Tree of Life. Yet there is no indication in Genesis that they ever did so. Though they were created as adults, they had no experience. So mentally, they were immature. I think God wanted them to mature. Their obedience would have been a move toward maturity. When they had matured, they would be in a position to eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. Perhaps they were not mature enough to even be aware of the existence of the Tree.

So I think what God wanted, was for them to obey His simple command not to refrain from eating from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thereby mature and be qualified to eat from the Tree of Life. Once they were mature immortals, God would have had them eat from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But Satan, as he often does, wanted them to reverse the procedure: Eat from the forbidden tree first, become independent from God, and then eat the tree of life and live forever as rebels. However, God prevented Satan from fully carrying out his plan by barring entry to the garden.

[steve7150]

Even if we grant that most people (perhaps all people) are not capable of making an 'eternal choice' during this lifetime, that by no means renders the choices that we do make in the here and now irrelevant to our eternal destinies. Our choices are steps toward or away from God, no matter if they are ultimate or irreversible.










Yes i agree since we are judged by our works.

[steve7150]

So I think what God wanted, was for them to obey His simple command not to refrain from eating from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thereby mature and be qualified to eat from the Tree of Life. Once they were mature immortals, God would have had them eat from The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. But Satan, as he often does, wanted them to reverse the procedure: Eat from the forbidden tree first, become independent from God, and then eat the tree of life and live forever as rebels. However, God prevented Satan from fully carrying out his plan by barring entry to the garden.
Paidion










OK i understand your position Paidion and i already described mine so we have to agree to disagree on this.

[kenblogton]

Reply to steve7150
Do you think God knew what would happen?
Knew with 100% absolute certainty? No. I don't think such knowledge exists regarding the future of creatures with libertarian free will.
If God didn't have 100% certainty about Eve's decision what would you estimate the certainty level at? God has omniscient knowledge, God created Eve and knows her on a omniscient level.
What God knew with 100% absolute certainty is that Adam & Eve had 2 choices: to eat, or to not eat, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God knew which choice they would make, they did not have free will. The alternative is determinism: that it was inevitable that they would eat the forbidden fruit - that they did not have free will. God knows all the possibilities, but not the choices, of His free will creatures. In this email, you seem to flip-flop between free will and determinism - that God knows the choices His free will creatures. That is IMPOSSIBLE - determinism says God makes people knowing they will do evil! Omniscience - knowing the choices - is not determinism - knowing which choice!
kenblogton

[steve7150]

What God knew with 100% absolute certainty is that Adam & Eve had 2 choices: to eat, or to not eat, the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If God knew which choice they would make, they did not have free will. The alternative is determinism: that it was inevitable that they would eat the forbidden fruit - that they did not have free will. God knows all the possibilities, but not the choices, of His free will creatures.






Ken, do you think it's possible to have elements of determinism and free will in the same mix? What do you think of these verses?

"For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.20 - 21

"And the Lord God said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Gen 3.22


"Who (Christ) verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" 1 Pet 1.19 - 20


"By His Spirit he has garnished the heavens, his hand has formed the crooked serpent" Job 26.13

[kenblogton]

Reply to steve7150
Hi Steve I've added my answers after your questions (shown in colour) below.
Ken, do you think it's possible to have elements of determinism and free will in the same mix? What do you think of these verses?
I believe the non-free will part of creation - planets, stars, etc. - is deterministic
"For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.20 - 21
The bondage of corruption that we're delivered from is well described in James 1:13-15 "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death"
"And the Lord God said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Gen 3.22 When Adam & Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they learned of evil; prior to that, they only knew of good
"Who (Christ) verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" 1 Pet 1.19 - 20 Christ's coming was foreordained contingent on humankinds' learning of - and doing - evil
"By His Spirit he has garnished the heavens, his hand has formed the crooked serpent" Job 26.13 This is apparently a description of Leviathan, the sea monster; Leviathan is a part of God's non-free will creation
kenblogton

[steve7150]

Ken, do you think it's possible to have elements of determinism and free will in the same mix? What do you think of these verses?
I believe the non-free will part of creation - planets, stars, etc. - is deterministic

"For the creature was made subject to vanity not willingly but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Rom 8.20 - 21
The bondage of corruption that we're delivered from is well described in James 1:13-15 "When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death"

"And the Lord God said, "Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." Gen 3.22 When Adam & Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they learned of evil; prior to that, they only knew of good

"Who (Christ) verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" 1 Pet 1.19 - 20 Christ's coming was foreordained contingent on humankinds' learning of - and doing - evil

"By His Spirit he has garnished the heavens, his hand has formed the crooked serpent" Job 26.13 This is apparently a description of Leviathan, the sea monster; Leviathan is a part of God's non-free will creation







Thanks for answering Ken,
So you think the non free will part of creation is deterministic. It's generally believed man must have free will for true love to exist but how about Satan? Why would God allow Satan to have free will? I think Satan is a tool of God to accomplish God's purposes and he is not a fallen angel and that Isa 14 and Ezekial 28 are not about Satan. What do you think?
The creature (us) was made subject to vanity not willingly. Yet James says God does not tempt us therefore that seems to leave one option which is that Satan subjected them to vanity and/or Eve's potential lusts subjected her to vanity but both originated from God's hand.

"To know good and evil" You said Adam already knew good. But the knowledge of good and evil are in ONE TREE. You can't have one without the other. Couldn't God have put good in one tree and evil in the other? Couldn't He have put the tree of good right in the middle of the garden and the tree of evil in a far corner?

God created the heavens by His Spirit but He created the "crooked serpent" by His hand. I think creating the serpent is being contrasted with the rest of creation for a reason, because he is different then everything else. The crooked serpent , the old serpent is Satan.

[Homer]

I still do not get it - that God's knowing in advance that I will choose to do something robs me of my free - will in making that choice. How so? Just because it is inevitable that I will do something does not mean that I will not willingly, without coercion, decide to do it.