Open Theism and Determinism

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:23 pm

Can God use evil situations to accomplish good purposes? Of course. But it is another step beyond that to say that God's PLAN A is to do it that way. I think God would much rather accomplish his good purposes without evil.

Did Eve have all the sins of the world in her heart before she made a move? No. She had the potential for evil (perhaps that is all you meant).









I think there are deeply ingrained traditions in Christianity and one of them is God's connection to evil. One end of the spectrum is Calvinism where God creates and micro manages everything including evil. The other end of the spectrum is to separate God from evil because we can't visualize the distinction between evil in the hands of man verses in the hands of God.

"So when the women saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of it's fruit and ate." Gen 3.6

So if Eve had the potential for evil it didn't take much to ferret out that "potential evil" into "actualized evil" , she saw the tree. Do you think God knew what would happen?

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Paidion
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Paidion » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:32 pm

From my personal observations, I believe people CAN do good things without the grace of God. It's just much easier to do them WITH that enabling grace!—with a greater likelihood of success.
Because of my younger daughter i know a lot of kids in their 20s and they all smoke. They all know how dangerous smoking is and that it could cause them to die a slow and painful death, yet they continue despite their "freewill." If they can't even muster the freewill to give up smoking which they can see and smell and know is dangerous, i wonder how free their will is?
All the people I know, except two, who have taken up smoking, have done so because their friends smoke. So I think these "kids" in their 20s are engaging in social smoking. Social pressure to conform is very strong. But then the smoking habit in itself is very strong. Yet, I know people who have smoked for 20y, and who have begun to consider the harmful effect on their health, and have suddenly quit, cold turkey. Others who have quit, have stuggled for years before quitting.

Some think that because Christ spoke of sinners being slaves to sin, that He was saying that no one cannot say "No!" to wrongdoing. But even a physical slave has a free will. He CAN say, "No!" to his master (and face the consequences).
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 16, 2014 7:28 pm

steve7150 wrote:So if Eve had the potential for evil it didn't take much to ferret out that "potential evil" into "actualized evil" , she saw the tree.
I agree it didn't take much. I am just insisting that it took something. It was not predetermined. She had a choice.

Do you think God knew what would happen?
Knew with 100% absolute certainty? No. I don't think such knowledge exists regarding the future of creatures with libertarian free will.

kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by kenblogton » Thu Jan 16, 2014 10:20 pm

Reply to steve7150
I think evil in man's hands is sinful, but i think God can use evil as a tool just like He uses Satan has a tool. Eve had in her heart all the sins of the world, lust of the eyes , lust of the flesh and the pride of life before she made a move. Where did this come from? Where did Satan come from? How did he get in the garden? Why was this tree right in front of Eve instead in a far off corner?
God must allow evil if humans are to have free will - the freedom to choose to do good or to do evil.
From Adam & Eve on, all humans have the potential for sin; we actualize sin when we do things our way or Satan's way and not God's way, as Adam & Eve chose to do.
Satan is a fallen angel whose origin and fall is well described in Isaiah 14:12-15 and Ezekiel 28:13-15. Isaiah 14:12-15 states "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star[morning star is Lucifer, one of Satan's titles], son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."[Satan's pride made him want to make himself like God] But you are brought down to the grave, to the depths of the pit." [Hell}
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steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:07 am

Do you think God knew what would happen?



Knew with 100% absolute certainty? No. I don't think such knowledge exists regarding the future of creatures with libertarian free will.










OK let's assume Open Theism is true. God created Eve and also God created Satan and God created the tree of knowledge and God placed the tree in the middle of the garden.

If God didn't have 100% certainty about Eve's decision what would you estimate the certainty level at? God has omniscient knowledge, God created Eve and knows her on a omniscient level. Everything that can be known about Eve God knows. Eve saw the tree and these passions simply manifested themselves.
My guess is God knew what would happen with at least 99% certainty. Additionally God probably placed Satan there rather then Satan just wandering in.

To me this appears to be pretty straightforward as to what the course of events would be. I'm not disputing that God allows choices but only to extent it serves his purposes for mankind, IMHO.

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:45 am

I have no doubt God was fully aware The Fall was possible... even likely... bordering inevitable.
I'm not disputing that God allows choices but only to extent it serves his purposes for mankind, IMHO.
Perhaps our only disagreement, then, is that I think the VERY GIVING of libertarian free will serves his purposes in general. It is not that God occassionally grants free will when it serves His purposes... it is that one of His primary purposes is to grant libertarian free will (b/c it creates the necessary environment for His greatest purpose: bringing us into the realm of Trinitarian love)

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Paidion
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Paidion » Fri Jan 17, 2014 1:46 pm

Steve7 wrote:If God didn't have 100% certainty about Eve's decision what would you estimate the certainty level at? God has omniscient knowledge, God created Eve and knows her on a omniscient level. Everything that can be known about Eve God knows. Eve saw the tree and these passions simply manifested themselves.
My guess is God knew what would happen with at least 99% certainty. Additionally God probably placed Satan there rather then Satan just wandering in.
Steve, what you are saying seems to indicate that God WANTED Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Is that what you believe?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:09 pm

Steve7 wrote:If God didn't have 100% certainty about Eve's decision what would you estimate the certainty level at? God has omniscient knowledge, God created Eve and knows her on a omniscient level. Everything that can be known about Eve God knows. Eve saw the tree and these passions simply manifested themselves.
My guess is God knew what would happen with at least 99% certainty. Additionally God probably placed Satan there rather then Satan just wandering in.



Steve, what you are saying seems to indicate that God WANTED Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Is that what you believe?






Yes Paidion and i know you have a very different view. I'm trying to interpret based on the facts and circumstances and not by any ideology. If you think i misunderstood anything, please let me know.

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Perhaps our only disagreement, then, is that I think the VERY GIVING of libertarian free will serves his purposes in general. It is not that God occassionally grants free will when it serves His purposes... it is that one of His primary purposes is to grant libertarian free will (b/c it creates the necessary environment for His greatest purpose: bringing us into the realm of Trinitarian love)









OK then perhaps our difference in this is a matter of emphasis. Mine is on God's purposes and i think yours is on libertarian free will and the ramifications.
I hope that in the end CU is true or something close to it and to that end i think it only happens if it is specifically God's purpose. In my thought process these other issues like free will
are secondary although important.

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Fri Jan 17, 2014 2:22 pm

steve7150 wrote:OK then perhaps our difference in this is a matter of emphasis. Mine is on God's purposes and i think yours is on libertarian free will and the ramifications.
My emphasis is also on God and His purposes. I think God is love and His purpose is to bring people into the divine love. Libertarian free will is simply a secondary doctrine that comes out of that emphasis since true love requires choice.

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