Open Theism and Determinism

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 6:56 am

Adam & Eve, and every human being since, face the same dilemma: listen to God, and do well OR listen to yourself or the devil, and do badly. If we all listened to God all the time, Christ would not have needed to come.







It seems to me Christ was meant to come from before the foundation of the world,

"For the creation was subjected to futility, NOT WILLINGLY, but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself would be set free from it's bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Rom 8.20 - 21

The above sounds pretty straightforward to me which is that God meant us to overcome through Christ, which seems to square with reality. However the general belief is that for love to exist God must have given us libertarian freewill because we must come to God out of our own unimpeded choice, otherwise it's not love it's coercion.
That sounds logical but on the other hand that assumes everyone is capable of making eternal choices. Because of my younger daughter i know a lot of kids in their 20s and they all smoke. They all know how dangerous smoking is and that it could cause them to die a slow and painful death, yet they continue despite their "freewill." If they can't even muster the freewill to give up smoking which they can see and smell and know is dangerous, i wonder how free their will is?

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 16, 2014 9:34 am

I think you continue to confuse what is generally meant by libertarian free will.

Those who support this doctrine are not saying that fallen humanity is not in bondage to lies. They are not even saying that they could have 'done otherwise' in every scenario. They need only insist that there are at least some key moments where people, generally, can do otherwise. These key decisions or forks in the road may be determinative to future freedom or bondage. In this sense, libertarian free will is simply the doctrine that says all things are not predetermined.

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Homer
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by Homer » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:05 am

Because of my younger daughter i know a lot of kids in their 20s and they all smoke. They all know how dangerous smoking is and that it could cause them to die a slow and painful death, yet they continue despite their "freewill." If they can't even muster the freewill to give up smoking which they can see and smell and know is dangerous, i wonder how free their will is?
But they are making a rational free will choice, as people so often do: certain pleasure now vs. potential displeasure later.

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:41 am

Because of my younger daughter i know a lot of kids in their 20s and they all smoke. They all know how dangerous smoking is and that it could cause them to die a slow and painful death, yet they continue despite their "freewill." If they can't even muster the freewill to give up smoking which they can see and smell and know is dangerous, i wonder how free their will is?



But they are making a rational free will choice, as people so often do: certain pleasure now vs. potential displeasure later.






But Homer they are making an irrational decision on any level of maturity. To classify smoking cigarettes for the certain pleasure (which is questionable itself) as rational means that these kids can not make the better choice to forgo the momentary pleasure for a life of health benefits. To me that's irrational unless they have no ability to think past 5 minutes.

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 16, 2014 11:53 am

Steve,

Are you suggesting that it is predetermined that they will smoke?

Is it predetermined that one day they'll quit? Or is it predetermined that they'll always smoke?

Are you suggesting they never had a choice on whether to start or not?

I don't think I can even fathom your position, to be honest.

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:24 pm

Are you suggesting that it is predetermined that they will smoke?

Is it predetermined that one day they'll quit? Or is it predetermined that they'll always smoke?

Are you suggesting they never had a choice on whether to start or not?

I don't think I can even fathom your position, to be honest.







No Matt i'm not a Calvinist. I simply think God created man as Spiritually weak and morally weak from the beginning with little ability to go down the right path without Him. Jesus said "you can do nothing without me", maybe it was not hyperbole.

kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by kenblogton » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:35 pm

Reply to steve7150
It seems to me Christ was meant to come from before the foundation of the world,

"For the creation was subjected to futility, NOT WILLINGLY, but because of him who subjected it in hope that the creation itself would be set free from it's bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God." Rom 8.20 - 21


Humankind's bondage to decay is the result of sin. If you say that God made humans so that they must sin, that is evil, which is impossible for God, as Habakkuk 1:13 states "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong." We always have a choice: to sin or to not sin. So Christ was God's contingent response to sin, our scapegoat, as prefigured in Leviticus 16.
kenblogton

steve7150
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:54 pm

Humankind's bondage to decay is the result of sin. If you say that God made humans so that they must sin, that is evil, which is impossible for God, as Habakkuk 1:13 states "Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong." We always have a choice: to sin or to not sin. So Christ was God's contingent response to sin, our scapegoat, as prefigured in Leviticus 16.










I think evil in man's hands is sinful, but i think God can use evil as a tool just like He uses Satan has a tool. Eve had in her heart all the sins of the world, lust of the eyes , lust of the flesh and the pride of life before she made a move. Where did this come from? Where did Satan come from? How did he get in the garden? Why was this tree right in front of Eve instead in a far off corner?

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:55 pm

steve7150 wrote:No Matt i'm not a Calvinist. I simply think God created man as Spiritually weak and morally weak from the beginning with little ability to go down the right path without Him. Jesus said "you can do nothing without me", maybe it was not hyperbole.
But Christians who believe in libertarian free will do not suggest that we can do anything (good) without Jesus/grace. We simply suggest that WE CAN do good things with Jesus/grace!

The prevenient grace of God brings response-ABILITY and, therefore, responsibility.

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mattrose
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism

Post by mattrose » Thu Jan 16, 2014 1:02 pm

steve7150 wrote: I think evil in man's hands is sinful, but i think God can use evil as a tool just like He uses Satan has a tool. Eve had in her heart all the sins of the world, lust of the eyes , lust of the flesh and the pride of life before she made a move. Where did this come from? Where did Satan come from? How did he get in the garden? Why was this tree right in front of Eve instead in a far off corner?
Can God use evil situations to accomplish good purposes? Of course. But it is another step beyond that to say that God's PLAN A is to do it that way. I think God would much rather accomplish his good purposes without evil.

Did Eve have all the sins of the world in her heart before she made a move? No. She had the potential for evil (perhaps that is all you meant). Where did the potential for evil come from? It is a necessary bi-product of creating real persons (real persons have libertarian free will). Satan and the tree provided the alternative choices. He and it got in the garden by the sovereign choice of God to allow alternative choices (and thus provide genuine free will), but by no means does that mean that she didn't have a choice (it means that she DID!).

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