Open Theism and Determinism
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Christ had the benefit of access to the knowledge of the exact time of testing for Peter (that night), and to flawlessly understand where Peter's character/heart was (fearful/cowardly). His prediction seems to me to be one of assured knowledge given the two things he did know, rather than foreknowledge already of what Peter's choice would be.
But "assured knowledge" is very close to foreknowledge and according to the Openness belief if you have foreknowledge you can't have freewill.
But "assured knowledge" is very close to foreknowledge and according to the Openness belief if you have foreknowledge you can't have freewill.
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
I meant that he had assured knowledge (poor wording I admit) of two things that to us are more variable. He knew if God had a divine test coming for Peter, and he knew Peter well. The outcome then was a sure thing, and the prediction was a prediction based upon Peter's character, not knowledge of Peter's future choice.steve7150 wrote:But "assured knowledge" is very close to foreknowledge and according to the Openness belief if you have foreknowledge you can't have freewill.
Both result in the same outcome, but one is an understanding of who Peter is (present knowledge) and the other is a foreknowledge of what Peter will do (future knowledge). In both cases, it also involves having inside information to God's divine testing to come (present knowledge).
The wording might be a work in progress, but it makes sense in my head. Jesus could have said what he did to Peter based upon present knowledge of what could be known (who Peter was, and what God had planned), without foreknowledge of Peter's choice already being made.
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
The wording might be a work in progress, but it makes sense in my head. Jesus could have said what he did to Peter based upon present knowledge of what could be known (who Peter was, and what God had planned), without foreknowledge of Peter's choice already being made.
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jaydam
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Whether it's "present knowledge" or "assured knowledge" the freewill part is getting slimmer and slimmer.
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jaydam
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Whether it's "present knowledge" or "assured knowledge" the freewill part is getting slimmer and slimmer.
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to jaydam Tue Jan 14 1:58pm
So how would openness explain the coming of Christ, and the predictions of how it would go down?
Did God look ahead and see the future?
OR
In the present time of Mary, did God decide then that this was when Christ would be born? Then God ensured he "forced" the events to happen which would fulfill past prophecy?
God planned the coming of Christ to open up heaven for humankind. Prior to Jesus sacrifice, no one was in heaven, as John 3:13 states, because no human had lived a perfect sin-free life, as Romans 3:23 states. Jesus came to die - He was not taken out by the Jews or Romans, as Jesus states in John 10:14-18 ""I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.""
kenblogton
So how would openness explain the coming of Christ, and the predictions of how it would go down?
Did God look ahead and see the future?
OR
In the present time of Mary, did God decide then that this was when Christ would be born? Then God ensured he "forced" the events to happen which would fulfill past prophecy?
God planned the coming of Christ to open up heaven for humankind. Prior to Jesus sacrifice, no one was in heaven, as John 3:13 states, because no human had lived a perfect sin-free life, as Romans 3:23 states. Jesus came to die - He was not taken out by the Jews or Romans, as Jesus states in John 10:14-18 ""I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.""
kenblogton
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Ken, I FULLY agree! Yet God didn't EXPECT her continuing unfaithfulness. He THOUGHT after she had done these things, she would return to Him, but she didn't return.He certainly knew of the possibility of her unfaithfulness.
As you said, God knew ALL possibilities including this one. It wasn't because Israel did something that God had never thought of, that He was surprised. He knew Israel's choice as a possiblitiy just as He knew all other possibilities, just as you have said.
The reason why God was surprised was that Israel chose to continue in her unfaithfulness, whereas God thought she would return to Him instead.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
God planned the coming of Christ to open up heaven for humankind. Prior to Jesus sacrifice, no one was in heaven, as John 3:13 states, because no human had lived a perfect sin-free life, as Romans 3:23 states. Jesus came to die - He was not taken out by the Jews or Romans, as Jesus states in John 10:14-18 ""I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life--only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.""
kenblogton
kenblogton
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Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world , which means before Adam and Eve. This sounds like God determined what would happen rather then Eve simply falling by her own libertarian freewill choice.
kenblogton
kenblogton
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Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world , which means before Adam and Eve. This sounds like God determined what would happen rather then Eve simply falling by her own libertarian freewill choice.
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Easily predictive behavior based upon knowing somebody is a far cry from removing any idea of freewill.steve7150 wrote:Whether it's "present knowledge" or "assured knowledge" the freewill part is getting slimmer and slimmer.
Vs.
Truthful foreknowledge of the choice a person will make, thus must make, in the future is a freewill dilemma, along with all the other implications it brings.
I just finished Gregory Boyd's "God of the Possible" and it seems in how he defines the open view of God is that the future is not exhaustively settled. There are things that God has decided will take place, and there are things that are open, thus the future is partially settled. This can account for the God instigated rise and fall of some nations, but it also leaves open how many individuals act within the situation. In the book, Boyd does not go as far as it seems I see some in these posts go of such complete openness that not a single thing is settled.
Again, I am not well read on the subject, I just know what Boyd has written in a single book, and what I read in internet articles.
Also, I just know that in the single case of Peter, I believe I can easily see how Christ could have accurately said what he did based upon his present knowledge, and no foreknowledge of what Peter would really do.
From my understanding thus far, I would believe into what could be best named "partial openness."
Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Also, I just know that in the single case of Peter, I believe I can easily see how Christ could have accurately said what he did based upon his present knowledge, and no foreknowledge of what Peter would really do.
I could see that too , that Christ could easily predict, but what if he were wrong? If He and God predict based on probabilities what if they make wrong predictions? I don't mean when God changes his mind, but does a wrong prediction impact God's truthfulness. God knows when he makes predictions people assume it to be iron clad, not just a likely possibility.
I could see that too , that Christ could easily predict, but what if he were wrong? If He and God predict based on probabilities what if they make wrong predictions? I don't mean when God changes his mind, but does a wrong prediction impact God's truthfulness. God knows when he makes predictions people assume it to be iron clad, not just a likely possibility.
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to Paidion
"Ken, I FULLY agree! Yet God didn't EXPECT her continuing unfaithfulness. He THOUGHT after she had done these things, she would return to Him, but she didn't return.
As you said, God knew ALL possibilities including this one. It wasn't because Israel did something that God had never thought of, that He was surprised. He knew Israel's choice as a possiblitiy just as He knew all other possibilities, just as you have said.
The reason why God was surprised was that Israel chose to continue in her unfaithfulness, whereas God thought she would return to Him instead."
God knew the possibility of Israel's continuing unfaithfulness. God wanted or hoped she would return to Him, but Israel continued to act in a way that was not in her own self-interest - disappointing perhaps, but not surprising to God.
kenblogton
"Ken, I FULLY agree! Yet God didn't EXPECT her continuing unfaithfulness. He THOUGHT after she had done these things, she would return to Him, but she didn't return.
As you said, God knew ALL possibilities including this one. It wasn't because Israel did something that God had never thought of, that He was surprised. He knew Israel's choice as a possiblitiy just as He knew all other possibilities, just as you have said.
The reason why God was surprised was that Israel chose to continue in her unfaithfulness, whereas God thought she would return to Him instead."
God knew the possibility of Israel's continuing unfaithfulness. God wanted or hoped she would return to Him, but Israel continued to act in a way that was not in her own self-interest - disappointing perhaps, but not surprising to God.
kenblogton
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Re: Open Theism and Determinism
Reply to steve7150 Jan 15 9:49am
"Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world , which means before Adam and Eve. This sounds like God determined what would happen rather then Eve simply falling by her own libertarian freewill choice."
Adam & Eve, and every human being since, face the same dilemma: listen to God, and do well OR listen to yourself or the devil, and do badly. If we all listened to God all the time, Christ would not have needed to come. Our fatal flaw is captured well in the Paul Anka song title "I DID IT MY WAY." Many or most people, when they've done it their way for long enough, and found that their way isn't so great, turn to God.
kenblogton
"Christ was chosen before the foundation of the world , which means before Adam and Eve. This sounds like God determined what would happen rather then Eve simply falling by her own libertarian freewill choice."
Adam & Eve, and every human being since, face the same dilemma: listen to God, and do well OR listen to yourself or the devil, and do badly. If we all listened to God all the time, Christ would not have needed to come. Our fatal flaw is captured well in the Paul Anka song title "I DID IT MY WAY." Many or most people, when they've done it their way for long enough, and found that their way isn't so great, turn to God.
kenblogton