Interesting Vid

[SteveF]

SteveF, if this letter was the only one the Thessolonians ever received would it not be enough to understand what was soon to take place? Furthermore if it was all we had would we still project those events to our yet future?

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Hi Allyn, perhaps I was confusing in trying to make my point, which is why I prefer dicussing things in person. I was not saying that the non-Christians wouldn't have stumbled accross some of Paul's letters. If you look at the verse above it seems clear that there were already letters in circulation that were claiming to be written by Apostles. That being the case, how would non-Christians be able to ensure that we've got the right ones?

Recorded history provides very solid support that we do have the correct books. If there were no Christians around to ensure we did receive the correct ones then we are standing on shaky ground.

[Allyn]

SteveF, if this letter was the only one the Thessolonians ever received would it not be enough to understand what was soon to take place? Furthermore if it was all we had would we still project those events to our yet future?

2Th 2:2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Hi Allyn, perhaps I was confusing in trying to make my point, which is why I prefer dicussing things in person. I was not saying that the non-Christians wouldn't have stumbled accross some of Paul's letters. If you look at the verse above it seems clear that there were already letters in circulation that were claiming to be written by Apostles. That being the case, how would non-Christians be able to ensure that we've got the right ones?

Recorded history provides very solid support that we do have the correct books. If there were no Christians around to ensure we did receive the correct ones then we are standing on shaky ground.

Hi Steve,

I think I did understand your point, and I agree that to be in person is better. The process took a long time (haven't really studied it though) and the Holy Spirit is still active. Revelation, for example, took a long time to finally be accacepted into the cannon. There are letters from other pre-destruction saints which have not made it in because they did not fit the criteria. So with a criteria established, those books compiled as our Bible have been determined as inspired. Are those the only inspired works? I don't know but I trust that the ones we have are.

I understand the bigger question is how did the church once again start up from a people supposedly left behind? And it is a valid question. I said at the beginning that I do not have all the answers. I only trust that God was able to do it and I trust that the Bible is telling me the truth that the 1st century event of the big three (parousia, resurrection, judgement) took place. I understand it is disturbing to some here that there was such deafening silence from the ECF that nothing was mentioned about these big three events having happened. But yet this has been my point. There was silence because there were no persons, who experienced the events, still left on earth to tell about it. "The mass exodus had taken place and no one noticed?", is a good question to ask but yet we do have all the reason in the world to accept it as written.

[TK]

Hi Allyn-

much of your argument seems to hinge on the fact that in Paul's letters he used pronouns like "we" and "you," e.g. "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Certainly it could read to mean "we who are alive now" but must it mean that? Could not Paul be speaking in generalities? Certainly the words of Jesus, spoken to specific persons at a specific period of time, cannot be read to apply only to them? If this is the case, why do we rely on the words of Jesus for guidance (and commandments) as to how to be obedient servants? after all, he was speaking to early 1st century persons, not us. Similarly, Pauls letters were to specific churches, but we rely on them constantly as being applicable to us today.

I simply do not believe that Paul's words for the Thessalonians could be construed as a "promise" to them that this "rapture" would occur in their lifetime.

How would you respond to this?

TK

[Allyn]

Hi Allyn-

much of your argument seems to hinge on the fact that in Paul's letters he used pronouns like "we" and "you," e.g. "we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord." Certainly it could read to mean "we who are alive now" but must it mean that? Could not Paul be speaking in generalities? Certainly the words of Jesus, spoken to specific persons at a specific period of time, cannot be read to apply only to them? If this is the case, why do we rely on the words of Jesus for guidance (and commandments) as to how to be obedient servants? after all, he was speaking to early 1st century persons, not us. Similarly, Pauls letters were to specific churches, but we rely on them constantly as being applicable to us today.

I simply do not believe that Paul's words for the Thessalonians could be construed as a "promise" to them that this "rapture" would occur in their lifetime.

How would you respond to this?

TK

There is a big difference between the commands of Jesus meant for all readers and the warnings and comforts concerning persecution and wrath and vindication meant for the 1st century believers.

At the end of my day, TK, I will give you some head spinning citations of more examples of how it was for them.

[Allyn]

Hi TK,

I think what I will do is start a new thread concerning the evidence I believe the Bible presents in favor of the 1st century event and the fact that the 1st century believers had enough knowledge that this was going to happen in their generation and were eagerly awaiting it. I will make seperate threads with the first few title The Book of... and so until and then one final thread titled The Epistles.

Thanks brother.

[Paidion]

You may get a different response from someone else, but I believe that there certainly was a rapture of the 1st century Christians. Not only do we have Scripture that points to a definite rapture but we have the exact reasoning that futurists use against it being a 1st century event in that there is no historical record of it. This is exactly how it is reasonable that it did happen.

You may get a different response from someone else, but I believe that there certainly was a nuclear war in the 1st century. Not only do we have Scripture that points to a definite nuclear war (Rev 16:8) but we have the exact reasoning that futurists use against it being a 1st century event in that there is no historical record of it. This is exactly how it is reasonable that it did happen.

[TK]

more evidence for the 1st century nuclear holocost:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Pet. 3:10-13

the bolded portion sounds as if he was talking to people who would expect this very shortly.

TK

[Allyn]

more evidence for the 1st century nuclear holocost:

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness. 2 Pet. 3:10-13

the bolded portion sounds as if he was talking to people who would expect this very shortly.

TK

Concerning the New Heaven and New Earth
http://www.preteristvoice.org/Fun4.html

[TK]

well. i read that article Allyn. I guess this is just one of those areas where my mind will never be changed. you would argue that is because i have been ingrained so much, and that may be true.

but when i read what Peter wrote, it seems so clear. if he is writing to specific persons, why would he use purely apocalyptic language? i know you would respond that Revelation is all apocalyptic- true- but it is a recording of a vision.

why would peter say the earth will be burnt up and the heavens will disappear with a roar, if in fact this wasnt actually going to happen? if i was living back then and got a letter from a beloved apostle, why would i not read it at face value? would i be expected to break out the scrolls and do extensive exegesis on the letter fas to how it might possibly be interpreted, or just read it at face value?

TK

[Sean]

You may get a different response from someone else, but I believe that there certainly was a rapture of the 1st century Christians. Not only do we have Scripture that points to a definite rapture but we have the exact reasoning that futurists use against it being a 1st century event in that there is no historical record of it. This is exactly how it is reasonable that it did happen.

You may get a different response from someone else, but I believe that there certainly was a nuclear war in the 1st century. Not only do we have Scripture that points to a definite nuclear war (Rev 16:8) but we have the exact reasoning that futurists use against it being a 1st century event in that there is no historical record of it. This is exactly how it is reasonable that it did happen.

Well said.