Punishment and the fear of God

[Homer]

Steve,

It was once your stated position that it was up to the heterodox to prove their case, not the other way around. This you have signally failed to do with both Gehenna and universalism. Have you changed you mind about who bears the burden of proof?

And your replies to opponents have repeatedly leaned to much to the ad-hominem. You criticize JR's writing (again) and then write this:

Since the statements to do not contradict your view, they must be taken as supporting it.

With a little effort I can understand what you meant. And JR isn't hard to understand with a little charitable effort.

[jriccitelli]

… the verses I see as applicable to AD 70 are ones that you apply to hell (Steve, this thread pg2)
I am not in dialogue with the majority of Christians. I am writing to you, and I don’t consider that you are under obligation to believe like the majority (Steve, above)

My view on ‘this point’ is the same as the predominate view held to by multiple millions for 2000 years; that Gehenna is hell, and that is clear in my posts.

You believe in annihilation. Aren’t you aware that the predominant view of the church for centuries has been different from yours on this matter? Why should I think you bound to hold their views about Gehenna, if you reject majority views on other matters? (Steve)

I have no differing view than the predominate and majority views on the matter, the only real difference is to the ‘length of time’ in the LOF. Once you remove eternal from the equation you are left with only two options, death or life. I agree with all the traditional verses and understanding of Judgment and hell, only that CI would put ‘emphasis’ on the destruction and annihilation suggested by the traditional verses. And I would remind ET proponents of 'mans mortality' attested to by scripture.

My view on Gehenna is based upon comparison of scripture with scripture, and is not done in the service of any extraneous theological agenda. (Steve)

"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? (Matt 23:33)
behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this place will no longer be called Topheth or the valley of Ben-hinnom, but rather the valley of Slaughter… "Just so will I break this people and this city, even as one breaks a potter's vessel, which cannot again be repaired; and they will bury in Topheth because there is no [other] place for burial. 12"This is how I will treat this place and its inhabitants," declares the LORD, "so as to make this city like Topheth. (Jeremiah 19:6-12) (The Hebrew demands the 'like' and 'just as' condition to the noun)
What they should fear is the sentence or condemnation of Gehenna. It was not necessarily the geographical place that Jesus warns of, but the Judgment itself. And like Gehenna would bring up the memory of Judgments like Jeremiahs, so likewise they should they fear the same in Jesus' time. The location or specific fulfillment was not the point, as Jeremiah suggests it will be ‘like’ Topheth, and this is my point of the warnings of Gehenna, they will be like Topheth. Just ‘as’ Tophet was a valley of slaughter, so shall your judgment be.

You think that, when a passage does not state what you are taking it to mean (i.e., a statement about a temporal judgment does not mention postmortem questions)... (Steve)

They are dead. And except for the righteous, no hope of further life is given in scripture for the faithless sinner, only perhaps the judgment.
The URist has to come up with a scenario that is not in scripture; the unrighteous dead becoming alive or the dead repenting, there is nothing to that effect. On the other hand scripture not only pronounces judgment, destruction, blotting out, burning, death, aionios death, and a second death on top of that with tons of scripture, while the UR position has to depend on hypothesis.

… that it is for those who disagree with you to prove that this silence necessarily eliminates the possibility of your assumptions being correct. (Steve)

Assumptions?
"So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age”
And the light of Israel will become a fire and his Holy One a flame, And it will burn and devour his thorns and his briars in a single day. 18 And He will destroy the glory of his forest and of his fruitful garden, both soul and body, And it will be as when a sick man wastes away.… (Isaiah 10:17-18)
Judgment is throughout scripture, and it is clear that there it will culminate in one final judgment. Scripture tells us with repeated examples, and tells us clearly that these were indeed examples. And just as it was at the beginning so shall it be at the end; destruction, fire, brimstone, feeding on carcasses, God uses the same descriptions of Judgment from the earliest prophets to the last. Scripture uses the 'like' and 'just as' statements all through scripture concerning Judgments. I see the same God pronouncing the same Judgments from start to finish, using the same words, in the same manner, as if it was the same author.

[steve]

If you say so, Gentlemen.

[Candlepower]

My view on ‘this point’ is the same as the predominate view held to by multiple millions for 2000 years; that Gehenna is hell, and that is clear in my posts.

First, if multiple millions for 2,000 years have held to the view that Gehenna is Hell, it’s not because it is a biblical view. Rather, it is a testimony to the effectiveness of mass indoctrination, i.e. the traditions of men. Majorities, regardless of their longevity, do not determine truth. Long-lived mass deception lacks credibility as a source of authority.

Second, Gehenna is not Hell. Gehenna is a geographical location near Jerusalem. Hell, on the other hand, is the place where everyone’s body goes when they die. I think it simply means the grave; the condition of being physically dead. We will all go there.

Using your equation (Gehenna = Hell), and the correct definition of Hell (the grave), here’s what your logic produces:

1) Everyone goes to Hell (the grave)

2) Hell = Gehenna

Therefore

3) Everyone goes to Gehenna

This cannot be true, obviously, so something must be wrong with the equation. The problem with your Gehenna = Hell equation is that you might misunderstand the meaning of the word Hell.

The Hebrew word Sheol means “The Grave” or “The Place of the Dead.” Sheol was where everyone went when they died, and no distinction was made based on their spiritual condition. As I said earlier, I think Sheol simply means the grave; physical deadness.

Hades is the Greek word for Sheol. Therefore, Sheol = Hades.

It seems to me that there are at least two reasons for the widespread misunderstanding of the word, Hell. First is the unfortunate fact that it mistakenly appears in the KJV Bible. The KJV/NKJV translators should not have used the word “Hell” in place of the words Sheol and Hades. They should have left those words in their untranslated forms, or else have properly translated them as “the grave” or “the place of the dead,” which is what those two words mean. The KJV translators mistakenly substituted Hell for Sheol 31 times in the OT. In the NT, they made 10 similar errors when they replaced Hades with Hell. Additionally, they mislabeled Gehenna and Tartarus as hell. The only fiery place they didn't call hell was the Lake of Fire. Ironically, a picture of that place is what everyone sees as Hell in their mind's eye. The KJV was the dominant translation for centuries, and some blame lies with it for the almost universal misunderstanding of the afterlife.

In addition to the KJV’s unfortunate substitution of the word Hell for the words Sheol and Hades, it should be remembered that it was the Roman Catholic religious system that broke ranks with other schools of thought concerning the nature of the environment in Sheol/Hades. The Romanists expanded and exploited the bizarre imaginings of the pagan/rabbinic view of Sheol. Being the dominant western religion for a thousand years, the Romanist system had plenty of time to institutionalize what we now call the traditional view of Hell.

Interestingly, there is no mention of eternal torment in the Old Testament. There is plenty of talk of temporal punishment and death, but never of eternal torture in flames. Such doctrine was picked up by the Jews from their captors and neighbors—Egyptian, Babylonian, Greek, Roman, etc. It is in the histories of those cultures where we find the grotesque notion of eternal torment in flames. The Judaism of Jesus’ time had come to rest much more on those adopted pagan notions than on God’s revelation. This reminds me of something an old man once told me. He said, “If I don’t like a story, I change it until I do like it.” Thus, the pagan roots of the doctrine of eternal torment.

[Homer]

Hi Candlepower,

You wrote:

The Hebrew word Sheol means “The Grave” or “The Place of the Dead.” Sheol was where everyone went when they died, and no distinction was made based on their spiritual condition. As I said earlier, I think Sheol simply means the grave; physical deadness.

Hades is the Greek word for Sheol. Therefore, Sheol = Hades.

I do not think you are giving adequate (any?) consideration to the figurative use of the words. Consider the following passage where Jesus used Hades unquestionably for judgment after the resurrection:

Luke 10:13-15, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you. 15. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

The KJV correctly translated hades as Hell.

Certainly Jesus was not ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day. Wouldn't He, the greatest teacher who ever lived, speak to the people in words in the sense they were commonly used? It was well known that Gehenna represented the place of final judgment of the wicked in Jesus' time. In Matthew 24:33 Jesus used a Rabbinic expression, “the judgment of Gehenna” (Bab. Tal. ER126).

It has been argued that Jesus would have used the word in the same way the prophets of old used it, but why should He? He certainly used the word "temple" figuratively, in a new way, applying it to the Church.

Mark 9:47, New American Standard Bible (NASB)
47. If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

Seems to me that a valley outside Jerusalem was not being contrasted with entering the kingdom.

I think that Gehenna was used figuratively by Jesus in every case as it was commonly used in His time on this earth. It is quite a stretch to say He used it of a literal valley in all cases. When Jerusalem was destroyed it is certain they didn't all wind up there, and probably only a minority at best.

[jriccitelli]

I agree with Homers post, and I might add that we know that not all Jewish believers lived in Jerusalem, in fact the scattering had begun with the Assyrian conquest and continued on since then. Many returned but many continued to live elsewhere.
Candle you notice that Gehenna had 'significant' history and notoriety as a place of 'judgment' and 'horrible' death, not 'just' death.

First, if multiple millions for 2,000 years have held to the view that Gehenna is Hell, it’s not because it is a biblical view.

Candle, I never said the majority sways my opinion, I simply pointed out that it was not simply 'my own' observation.
(I feel it is a tactic to make an objector 'appear' isolated)

Second, Gehenna is not Hell

Ok, then whatever you call it, how do the unrighteous escape the fact that they are dead?

Hell, on the other hand, is the place where everyone’s body goes when they die.

My point was that no matter where, or when they fell under the judgment of God, they had no hope of being raised alive.
Jesus asked how will you escape the Judgment of Gehenna, just as if he said how will you escape the judgment of Sodom, or Babylon, etc. it was not about escaping the location that mattered, it was how will you escape the Judgment?
So then did the people whom ended up in the judgment of Gehenna, do they come back alive? Where do we read this?
The Jews then (and today) did not have a hope for the resurrection of the unrighteous and faithless, they generally believe the wicked stay dead, and may even be annihilated.

[backwoodsman]

15. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

The KJV correctly translated hades as Hell.

Yes, I suppose it did. The question, of course, is what did 'hell' mean in 1611?

Webster's 1806 defines hell as, "the place of the damned, the grave, prison". My understanding is that 2 centuries earlier when the KJV was translated, the meaning leaned more toward 'the grave' and less toward 'the place of the damned', but I don't have time to try to document that at the moment.

So which of those meanings do you think the KJV translators meant, and why do you think that? Do you suppose the change in meaning of 'hell' over the centuries might cause people today to misunderstand what Jesus said in Luke 10:15?

[steve]

Homer wrote:

I do not think you are giving adequate (any?) consideration to the figurative use of the words. Consider the following passage where Jesus used Hades unquestionably for judgment after the resurrection:

Luke 10:13-15, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

13. “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had been performed in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14. But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the judgment than for you. 15. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!

The KJV correctly translated hades as Hell.

There is no reason to think that Hades, in this context, necessarily speaks of the lake of fire (since Hades itself will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire, and cannot be synonymous with it—Rev.20:14).

In this verse, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 14:15, where the same prediction is made of the king of Babylon. In that passage (which uses the word Sheol instead of Hades, since it was written in Hebrew), the king is told that, despite his arrogant aspirations, he will be reduced to the lowest and most humiliating station. This condition is represented as Sheol, whether literally or figuratively. In any case, it is not the final judgment scene. The shades in Sheol are described as mocking him there (v.16).


Homer also wrote:

Certainly Jesus was not ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day. Wouldn't He, the greatest teacher who ever lived, speak to the people in words in the sense they were commonly used?

My studies have led me to believe that there was no single view of Gehenna agreed upon in the intertestamental literature, or by the rabbis of Jesus’ day. While they did tend to use the term for the place of final judgment, there were those who saw it as a place of eternal torment (Judith), and others who believed the wicked would spend a finite time there, and afterward would either be restored to God or annihilated. All three views were present. Thus there was no way for Jesus to use the term “in the sense [it was] commonly used.” Is was commonly used a number of ways. Jesus could not expect them to understand Him to be supporting any one of the rabbinical speculations without His explicitly taking sides with one or the other.

In fact, Jesus often ignored common assumptions regarding the terms He chose, and simply used them the right way. This appears to be the case with His frequent use of “Son of Man” (a term that also had a variety of meanings among the rabbis) and the term “Kingdom of God” (which He imbued with much meaning contrary to the common expectations).

I am sure Jesus would have encouraged His disciples to understand Gehenna the way the Old Testament scriptures intended it, rather than to merely assume that the speculative fantasies of the scribes and Pharisees about the afterlife were to be trusted. Remember, He specifically warned them to beware of the teachings of the rabbis (Matt.16:12). Yet, you would seemingly have Him preferring their interpretations over those of prophets?

JR wrote:

My point was that no matter where, or when they fell under the judgment of God, they had no hope of being raised alive.
…So then did the people whom ended up in the judgment of Gehenna, do they come back alive? Where do we read this?
The Jews then (and today) did not have a hope for the resurrection of the unrighteous and faithless, they generally believe the wicked stay dead, and may even be annihilated.

I am not sure where you got your information about the Jewish beliefs, nor why their beliefs about this would be considered significant. If we are interested in Christian beliefs (which is what I, at least, am discussing), then there certainly is reference in scripture to the resurrection of the wicked (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15; Rev.20:13; [Dan.12:2]). I’m surprised you missed it.

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote:

I am sure Jesus would have encouraged His disciples to understand Gehenna the way the Old Testament scriptures intended it, rather than to merely assume that the speculative fantasies of the scribes and Pharisees about the afterlife were to be trusted. Remember, He specifically warned them to beware of the teachings of the rabbis (Matt.16:12). Yet, you would seemingly have Him preferring their interpretations over those of prophets?

No, that is not my point. Your claim is that Gehenna, as used by Jesus, always referred to a valley just outside Jerusalem. My view is that He always, or almost always, used Gehenna figuratively. It can make sense in every case where He used it. It is difficult to make sense of the literal use in every case.

The traditionalist, annihilationist, and universalist all see hell as an awful place where the wicked go. What happens to them after they get there is in dispute. Likewise the Jews of Jesus day had an understanding regarding place but disagreed over what happened to those who went there.

My TDNT notes regarding geena:

The Jewish apocalyptic assumed this valley would become the hell of fire. Hence, geena came to be applied to the eschatological hell in general, even when it was no longer localized at Jerusalem.

As with His many warnings, Jesus, I believe, used the word figuratively, as was common in His day, of the awful destiny of the wicked in the judgment. This does not mean He agreed with the Rabbinical teachings about what would occur there.

[steve]

As with His many warnings, Jesus, I believe, used the word figuratively, as was common in His day, of the awful destiny of the wicked in the judgment. This does not mean He agreed with the Rabbinical teachings about what would occur there.

The very use of the word Gehenna as a place of eschatological judgment (regardless which view of it was preferred) was itself a rabbinic tradition. It does not come from scripture, but from intertestamental speculation (originally 1 Enoch). If Jesus put His stamp on this usage, it is the only case I know of where Jesus affirmed that the rabbis had guessed correctly on a subject that was concealed even from Moses and the prophets.