Calvin's commentary on Eph 2:1

[robbyyoung]

It's about the nation of Jacob and the nation of Esau and about the "purpose of God" , there is no mention of individual people or salvation. It's the purposes of God through the nation of Israel.

Steve,

Romans 9:1-5 presents the facts of how Israel (after the flesh) obtained a privileged position.

Romans 9:6-9 then speaks of the true remnant of Israel (after the flesh), and the Gentile Nations salvation!(that would be you and I).

Romans 9:10-16 explains its God's sovereignty that makes us of the seed of promise

Roman 9:17-26 centered on individuals!

Romans 9:27 reverts back to the remnant's salvation!

Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is applying prophetic OT passages concerning "The Remnant and Gentiles Nations" salvation as being fulfilled during his ministry. IMO, this is the complete picture of Romans chapter 9.

Steve, I think it's best to ask the question, what are we in disagreement about?

God Bless!

[steve7150]

Steve, I think it's best to ask the question, what are we in disagreement about?









Robby, God electing individual folks to salvation and by extension individual people to be unsaved and then holding them responsible for His (God's) decision. If i understand you correctly you believe God elects who to save and then holds the unsaved responsible. I asked how this could make sense and you called this the million dollar question.
I think this scenario would simply be unjust and God is just, so if i described this accurately that's how we differ.

[robbyyoung]

...I think this scenario would simply be unjust and God is just,...

Steve, if no human being will ever seek after God on His terms, is Ephesians 1:4-6 "just"? (According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:)

Why is God considered unjust by predestinaing a people for himself for His good pleasure. We bring children into this world for our good pleasure, and we're blessed while being evil! God gives us a rebirth into His family, why? Because we are altogether dead to Him. This equates to us bringing a stillborn baby from the womb and nursing it as if it is alive! It's dead, we're dead, and It's not our will or to the praise of our glory we are made alive and adopted.

So Steve, how do you reconcile the following texts with a Just God? Because the texts stands firm.

Eph 1:4-6
Eph 1:11-12
Eph 2:1
Eph 2:4-5

Eph 2:12 How do you reconcile this?

Thanks and God Bless!

[steve7150]

Steve, if no human being will ever seek after God on His terms, is Ephesians 1:4-6 "just"? (According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:)

Why is God considered unjust by predestinaing a people for himself for His good pleasure. We bring children into this world for our good pleasure, and we're blessed while being evil! God gives us a rebirth into His family, why? Because we are altogether dead to Him. This equates to us bringing a stillborn baby from the womb and nursing it as if it is alive! It's dead, we're dead, and It's not our will or to the praise of our glory we are made alive and adopted.






Robby,
If Ephesians 1 & 2 were the whole bible, Calvinism would be a slam dunk. If you notice the predestination of folks is always linked to being "in Christ" or "in Him" and you could read this that Christ is the predestined one and if you are in Christ , then you are part of the predestined group or class of people that God foreknew would choose to follow Christ thereby being "in Christ."
In the OT the chosen people was the nation of Israel which anyone could become a part of. There was never a pattern of choosing individual people. In the NT there are dozens and dozens of verses where folks are encouraged to believe,have faith in, follow Christ. Why would we see so many encouragements if they were totally dead to God? Why would John the Baptist encourage and warn folks to repent if they were totally dead? Why were several people called righteous if they were totally dead?
I think that sometimes hyperbole is used and it's likely there were not people truly righteous on their own just as people are not totally dead or totally depraved.
John the Baptist seemed to think they had the ability to repent.

[robbyyoung]

Robby,
If Ephesians 1 & 2 were the whole bible, Calvinism would be a slam dunk. If you notice the predestination of folks is always linked to being "in Christ" or "in Him" and you could read this that Christ is the predestined one and if you are in Christ , then you are part of the predestined group or class of people that God foreknew would choose to follow Christ thereby being "in Christ."
In the OT the chosen people was the nation of Israel which anyone could become a part of. There was never a pattern of choosing individual people. In the NT there are dozens and dozens of verses where folks are encouraged to believe,have faith in, follow Christ. Why would we see so many encouragements if they were totally dead to God? Why would John the Baptist encourage and warn folks to repent if they were totally dead? Why were several people called righteous if they were totally dead?
I think that sometimes hyperbole is used and it's likely there were not people truly righteous on their own just as people are not totally dead or totally depraved.
John the Baptist seemed to think they had the ability to repent.

Hi Steve,

Thanks for the reply. The BOLD UNDERLINE I emphasized in your quote doesn't satisfy Romans 3:11 'There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." God says not one single human being will ever seek Him and you say...? I'm sorry, this understanding contradicts the clear teaching here. Presdestination is defined by God as Him choosing us!

Steve, the rest of your response will take me some time to answer. Pretty much everything stated need to be challenged biblically, I just don't have the time right at the moment, but I will respond. But please feel free to respond to this single reply. It seems that when encountering this subject most seek to ignore these texts, well; Eph, Rom, etc... is the Word of God and you can't explain it away or ignore it. Harmony is there, by excepting the truth of God's soverignity and Man's utter depravity.

[Sean]

The BOLD UNDERLINE I emphasized in your quote doesn't satisfy Romans 3:11 'There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." God says not one single human being will ever seek Him and you say...? I'm sorry, this understanding contradicts the clear teaching here. Presdestination is defined by God as Him choosing us!

Hello Robby,
As far as Romans 3 is concerned, this is speaking of mans' inability to do these things on a continual basis. No one continually seeks God, no one continually does good. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
There are many examples of this:
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
If unregenerate man is a slave to sin, then one who is born again is now free from sin and a slave to righteousness.(?) Does this mean that we as Christians never sin, just as the unregenerate never do good? To disagree with this text (Rom 6) but still hold an absolutist view of Rom 3 is inconsistent. Neither is absolute. Rather, they are generalizations. You would agree with this with reference to Romans 6, so be consistent.

Where do you get the idea that man cannot respond to the gospel?

When you brought up John 3, you didn't quote the entire context:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

Being born the first time required the cooperation of a male and a female, so does it follow that for someone to be born again that there must also be cooperation between two (God and man). At the very least you would have to admit that the gospel is proclaimed through the agency of man (2 Cor 5:20). If we read on in the example Jesus gives, we see in verse 14 that it is everyone who believes who is born again. Just as you had to look up at the serpent Moses lifted up, you have to believe to be born again, "healed" of you sin as it were. We see consistently throughout the new testament that believing is the condition that must be met in man for God to regenerate.

Acts 15: 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
Cleansing of the heart is none other than regeneration. And faith is the means by which regeneration takes place.

As far as Romans 9 in concerned, who does God have mercy on? Whom He desires. This is correct. But this is not the only text in the bible on this issue. Other texts tell us upon what basis God desires to have mercy on man.

“God resists the proud, But gives grace to the humble.” 1 Peter 5:5
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. James 2:13
“Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy." Matt 5:7
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Rom 11:32

If Romans 9 is about salvation, then what is Romans 11 about?

11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened...11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?


Please explain how (If your view of Romans 9 is correct) Paul can say that the hardened part of Israel (v7) who are not elect are considered to have fallen but not beyond recovery? Paul says that Gentile salvation makes the hardened/non-elect part of Israel jealous so that some may be saved (v14)! According to Paul, the non-elect can be saved. Only a corporate view of election can account for this. The non-elect can attain "elect status" if they come to Christ, since He is the elect one. We are elect in Him and have redemption in Him (Eph 1:7).

[Paidion]

The BOLD UNDERLINE I emphasized in your quote doesn't satisfy Romans 3:11 'There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." God says not one single human being will ever seek Him and you say...? I'm sorry, this understanding contradicts the clear teaching here. Presdestination is defined by God as Him choosing us!

When we look at the source of the quote in Rom. 3:11, we find this it speaking of atheists, "workers of iniquity" with a possible reference to the nations of the earth. Those who do not understand or who do not seek God do not seem to include the nation of Israel.

1 ¶ To the Chief Musician. Set to "Mahalath." A Contemplation of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and have done abominable iniquity; There is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call upon God?
5 There they are in great fear Where no fear was, For God has scattered the bones of him who encamps against you; You have put them to shame, Because God has despised them.
6 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When God brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad. (Psalm 53 NKJKV)

[robbyyoung]

Hello Sean, Paidion and Steve,

May God's grace and peace be with you all in Jesus Christ our Lord. Expressing ones' opinion in written from is indeed an art/skill that I lack. But with the help of our heavenly Father, glory be to His name, my intent should be nothing less than the pursuit of peace, love and truth toward my brethren in all honesty. I believe the atonement was made for all men and therefore God has qualified all to hear the gospel call. This isn't Calvinism.

I simply believe that scripture teaches God is the initiator, and all will be draw (interesting greek word; means drag off) to Christ, to decide whether or not to believe on Him. This is why I believe the "born again" analogy is so powerful. We were born of the Water and Spirit. The Water is the Word of God, we are brought to hear the gospel, that saves, to make a choice. If we accept, the Spirit resides in us and we are born again.

My point is, God is the initiator and thankfully, all will be without excuse.

God Bless!

[steve7150]

This is why I believe the "born again" analogy is so powerful. We were born of the Water and Spirit. The Water is the Word of God, we are brought to hear the gospel, that saves, to make a choice. If we accept, the Spirit resides in us and we are born again.

My point is, God is the initiator and thankfully, all will be without excuse.








Robby,
Grace and peace to you too. I think we all agree God is the initiator, the only disagreement may be whether man has the capacity to respond. I thought you explained yourself well, it's just that certain verses like Rom 3.11 you take literally and i see as hyperbole. As a Full Preterist you seem to allow for much more symbolism then you do for this topic of interpretation. Anyway good to hear your point of view.

[Sean]

Hello Sean, Paidion and Steve,

May God's grace and peace be with you all in Jesus Christ our Lord. Expressing ones' opinion in written from is indeed an art/skill that I lack. But with the help of our heavenly Father, glory be to His name, my intent should be nothing less than the pursuit of peace, love and truth toward my brethren in all honesty. I believe the atonement was made for all men and therefore God has qualified all to hear the gospel call. This isn't Calvinism.

I simply believe that scripture teaches God is the initiator, and all will be draw (interesting greek word; means drag off) to Christ, to decide whether or not to believe on Him. This is why I believe the "born again" analogy is so powerful. We were born of the Water and Spirit. The Water is the Word of God, we are brought to hear the gospel, that saves, to make a choice. If we accept, the Spirit resides in us and we are born again.

My point is, God is the initiator and thankfully, all will be without excuse.

God Bless!

Ok, thanks for the clarification. But this seems to be at odds with what you said earlier, that no one seeks God so God chooses some by predestination apart faith, etc.

I believe we were chosen "in him". Meaning, we are chosen when we come to faith in Christ, when we attach ourselves by faith to Christ. It's like saying those animals were chosen "in the ark". Meaning, the ark was the only escape from the flood and all who were "in the ark" were chosen in that sense. They were saved. Jesus is the elect one. We are also chosen "in him", which is different from saying 'we were chosen to be in him'.