Deity of Jesus for salvation?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:53 pm

But perhaps we can see the “fully God” and “fully man” in the sense that human beings are made up of a combination of body and soul (or spirit). Without getting into the debate about whether the soul and spirit are separate things, let’s just say that there are at least two facets, something physical (body) and something spiritual

In Phil 2.6 Paul said that Jesus emptied "kenosis" himself of his divinity while he became a man so IMO he was fully God but set aside his divinity temporarily.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:47 am

When we are conceived, our physical bodies are created by a natural act of joining sperm and egg. But it would seem that God, at that time, also creates our soul and conjoins it with the body somehow. “Knitting us together” in the womb so to speak . As far as I can tell, that soul conjoined to the body is something created by God at the moment we become a human being (which is at conception IMO).

Thanks, Christopher, for sharing your thoughts with us. You said you are "thinking out loud", and so I am not going to argue with your thoughts.
I'll just share some of my own.

It seems that we are born with a sinful nature. So if God "creates our soul" at the time of conception, surely He would not create a sinful soul.
When you were born, surely your "soul" (if it's an entity separate from your body) was inherited from your parents and grandparents along with your body. Surely that inheritance began with Adam and Eve, and from them, throughout the many generations down to yourself, you inherited your sinful nature.

However, as I see it, "body" and "soul" are not two separate entities. The word "soul" means "self". It refers to your entire being. "Body" and "mind" are two different aspects of your "self" (or "soul").

To create Adam, God first created a body out of earth. Then He breathed into him the breath of life ("spirit"), and Adam BECAME a living soul (or "living being"). God didn't create a soul and place it into the body He created. He breathed life into the body and it BECAME a soul.

Body + spirit = soul

When you die, your spirit, (not you, but the life which comes from God to make you alive) returns to the God who gave it. When that spirit of life is gone, nothing remains but a dead body.

The idea of your soul being a separate entity that inhabits your body, comes from Greek thought. Plato thought that your soul is immortal, and reincarnates as an animal if you didn't live a good life, or as a human if you did. This concept of the "immortality of the soul" crept into Chistianity, and that in spite of the scriptural statement that God alone has immortality. Thus we have been taught the idea that the soul goes to heaven or hell after death.

Paul indicated, that unless God raises us to life again, we'll remain dead, and might as well eat, drink, and be merry.

David prayed to God to keep him alive, because he couldn't praise God in death. He also stated that in death there is no remembance of God.

So I believe that when I die, I will be truly dead ---- and will remain dead until Jesus raises me to life again.

John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Post by **_Steve** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 12:16 pm

Paidion,

That's as good an explanation of your position as I have heard. I am not sure that it adequately accounts for every relevant scriptural statement, and it is different from what I have always believed and taught, but it is a worthy alternative viewpoint, in my judgment.

I also think that Christopher's suggestion is sensible, and I don't think anything about it is heretical.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:37 pm

Paidion, But since Christ's resurrection did'nt Paul explain his future as "far better for me to depart and be with Christ" Phil 1 and he is "willing to be absent from the body and to be with Christ."
It's true no time frame is given but it sounds like Paul expected to be with Christ very quickly and it sounded like Paul expected to know Christ meaning he would retain his identity.
I do agree that unbelievers are sleeping until the resurrection of everyone however.

Post by **_loaves** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 1:46 pm

Could someone please refresh my memory as to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about the deity of Jesus?

Agape,

loaves

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:38 pm

[color=darkblue]Could someone please refresh my memory as to what Jehovah's Witnesses believe about the deity of Jesus?

Agape,

loaves[/color]

Hi, The JWs believe Jesus is a created being and not diety. They have a different understanding of the atonement which is that Jesus paid a ransom or equal payment for sin to cancel out Adam's sin and the rest is up to us.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 7:56 pm

Jehovah's witnesses believe that Jesus pre-existed as Michael, the Archangel, the highest created being in heaven. He is a god, (in the sense of a "powerful one", but, in their view, is not Deity in the sense that the Father is Deity.

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:18 pm

Steve7150 wrote that Paul was "willing to be absent from the body and to be with Christ." The reference is to 2 Cor 5:8, a verse which is often used to support the idea that Christians go directly to heaven as soon as they die. Indeed, it is frequently misquoted as "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

Let's look at the passage in context. Paul began chapter 5 with these words:

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

As I see it, Paul is here describing the resurrection that occurs when Jesus returns. Having been raised to life, we "put on our heavenly dwellling" --- the resurrection body. Having put it on, we "will not be found naked." We will not be mere disembodied spirits. Then Paul wrote:

5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight—
8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

I think Paul is saying that it's preferable to be absent from this present mortal body, and to be at home with the Lord in our future immortal body when we are resurrected.

As for Paul expecting to be with Christ "very quickly", I agree that this was his expectation. For after Paul died, his next awareness, would be in the presence of Christ.

Often when a person goes in for an operation, he asks a nurse when the operation is going to take place, only to be told that it has already taken place! For the patient had no remembrance from the moment he was put asleep until he awakened after the operation.

As the Psalmist said, "In death there is no remembrance..."

Post by **_Sean** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:45 pm

It seems like in the book of revelation that there are more than one occurance of the "dead" comunicating, crying out, watching, and standing (as in a great multitude from every nation, tribe & tounge) etc.

Also, Luke 16 comes to mind. A parable or not, most parables involved reality. If they didn't it would be hard to reconcile many of them. It seems like Jesus was saying something not made clear before and expected it to just be accepted. Just as He did when he explained marriage. Jesus answered in Matthew 22:29+ That God is not the God of the dead but the living. I believe Jesus was giving divine insight in Luke 16 as well, which helps correlate with what Paul says in Pilippinas

Phi 1:22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell.
Phi 1:23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Phi 1:24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

Depart and be with Christ? But Paul just said to live is Christ and to die is gain.

While I ceratinly am on the line, and don't get overly concerned if soul sleep is true or not, I guess I just hold Jesus to His word, taking Him literally in Luke 16, and if I'm wrong. God help me.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:09 pm

[color=violet]think Paul is saying that it's preferable to be absent from this present mortal body, and to be at home with the Lord in our future immortal body when we are resurrected.

As for Paul expecting to be with Christ "very quickly", I agree that this was his expectation. For after Paul died, his next awareness, would be in the presence of Christ.

Often when a person goes in for an operation, he asks a nurse when the operation is going to take place, only to be told that it has already taken place! For the patient had no remembrance from the moment he was put asleep until he awakened after the operation.

As the Psalmist said, "In death there is no remembrance[/color]

Paidion, Considering the urgency that Paul spoke with in both of his statements in Phil 1 and 2nd Cor 5 do you really believe he expected to be sleeping for 2,000 years before he could be with Christ?