Rob Bell comes out in support of gay marriage.

[Homer]

It is not infrequently claimed that Jesus said nothing about pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, etc., etc. But Jesus did say:

Mark 7:21-23, New King James Version (NKJV)

21. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22. thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

In Jesus' day fornication (porneia) included every form of sex outside heterosexual marriage.

[brody196]

It is not infrequently claimed that Jesus said nothing about pre-marital sex, homosexual sex, etc., etc. But Jesus did say:

Mark 7:21-23, New King James Version (NKJV)

21. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22. thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”

In Jesus' day fornication (porneia) included every form of sex outside heterosexual marriage.

Thanks Homer.

I am curious as to how any can deny the plain teaching of scripture on this issue. Here is an example of a "scholar" trying to defend the indefensible.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4mJZ6y_SZI

[brody196]

And just for the record morbo3000,

I am not trying to come off as rude or anything of the sort. I love all men and don't view homosexuality as being any more evil than adultery, idolatry, murder, etc.. My only problem comes when those who profess to be lovers of Jesus, deny what He and the Apostles taught. There is power in the gospel to overcome the sinful lifestyle of homosexuality, but that power is only found in the true gospel, not a watered down version of it.

So during this discussion, please remember that I am only seeking to uphold the teachings of Jesus on this matter and that I am do not wish to offend you. Heck, if you lived closer to Richland Georgia, I would invite you over to a cook out so we could discuss it over a meal!

[morbo3000]

Thanks for the warm fuzzies Brody.. great way to start the conversation. I'm known to tilt at windmills from time to time, so I'll keep that in check.

I'm working on a reply.. but it's not something you just bang out. It'll be up tonight. In the meantime, I'll share my modus operandi regarding scripture because it effects how I approach this subject. It's really a different discussion that I am willing to have but not in this thread.

My signature quotes Anabaptist reformer Hans Denck who said "We hold nothing in higher regard than the scripture except the Word of God." I believe that Jesus was an atom bomb, exploding into the world.. the church did its best to document it but could not do so completely. As John said, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." And I don't believe they could perfectly.

I don't take this view lightly. I grew up in evangelical and charismatic churches. I went to an Assembly of God bible college. I know that this road is fraught with peril. However, my approach to the Bible requires more of me than inerrancy does. I have to test my motivations when I come to the Bible so that I am not undermining Jesus' requirements of me. I have sexual sin in my own life that I believe the bible is clear about, errant or not; culturally relative or not. It would be nice if I could explain away homosexuality for the purpose of justifying my own predilections, but I can't. It would be misusing liberty. So, while my view of the bible may not be as high as you, my view of discipleship is much higher than it is assumed of liberals.

[TK]

Hi Morbo--

I am curious-- when Paul warns against homosexuality do you believe that he was mistaken, misguided, or that it was only for his time?

It seems the OT and NT are pretty straightforward on this topic, but you seem to be saying that there is a revelation higher than the scriptures. Of course you might not be saying this; I am not sure.

I guess the danger of that line of thinking (if that is what you are saying) is that it might be said about most anything.

The old gnostics and the current "hyper-grace" teachers seem to be saying this very thing.

TK

[Paidion]

In Jesus' day fornication (porneia) included every form of sex outside heterosexual marriage.

First I want to say that I oppose the practice of homosexuality on both "natural" and Biblical grounds. I am also opposed to divorce in which someone throws away their spouse like a used towel.

Yet, I want to make clear the Biblical use of the word "porneia." In the King James, it is translated in some instances as "fornication." Some modern translations render the word as "sexual immorality." It is assumed by many in our day that the Greek "porneia" as well as the English "fornication" means sex outside of marriage. But look up the Greek word. You will find that it means "prostitution" and the verbal form as applied to women means "prostituting oneself" and in the case of men "consorting with prostitutes." Even the King James Version in some contexts translates one form of the noun, namely "pornos," as "whoremonger." (Ephesians 5:5; I Timothy 1:10, Hebrews 13:4, Revelation 21:8). The feminine form of "pornos" is "pornā" and is usually translated as "harlot" or "prostitute."

As for the English word "fornication", dictionaries inform us that the word is derived from the Latin "fornix" meaning "arch", supposedly as a euphemism for "brothel."

[morbo3000]

...you seem to be saying that there is a revelation higher than the scriptures.

Isn't there?

[morbo3000]

In Jesus' day fornication (porneia) included every form of sex outside heterosexual marriage.

Yet, I want to make clear the Biblical use of the word "porneia." In the King James, it is translated in some instances as "fornication." Some modern translations render the word as "sexual immorality." It is assumed by many in our day that the Greek "porneia" as well as the English "fornication" means sex outside of marriage. But look up the Greek word. You will find that it means "prostitution" and the verbal form as applied to women means "prostituting oneself" and in the case of men "consorting with prostitutes." Even the King James Version in some contexts translates one form of the noun, namely "pornos," as "whoremonger." (Ephesians 5:5; I Timothy 1:10, Hebrews 13:4, Revelation 21:8). The feminine form of "pornos" is "pornā" and is usually translated as "harlot" or "prostitute."

As for the English word "fornication", dictionaries inform us that the word is derived from the Latin "fornix" meaning "arch", supposedly as a euphemism for "brothel."

Paidon.. I've been trying to hunt down an external greek definition of porneia, believing that it's definition as fornication was an english usage. Can you source this? Thanks!

[mattrose]

...you seem to be saying that there is a revelation higher than the scriptures.

Isn't there?

Surely Jesus is the greatest revelation

The Scriptures provide our best boundaries for interpreting Scriptures. After all, anyone can claim that Jesus told them X or Jesus told them Y. It's rather subjective. Scripture gives us a bedrock of Revelation from which to judge subjective claims. Therefore, I'd say the burden of proof is on the person claiming that Jesus said X when X is in apparent contradiction to God's revelation in Scripture.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:

Yet, I want to make clear the Biblical use of the word "porneia." In the King James, it is translated in some instances as "fornication." Some modern translations render the word as "sexual immorality." It is assumed by many in our day that the Greek "porneia" as well as the English "fornication" means sex outside of marriage. But look up the Greek word. You will find that it means "prostitution" and the verbal form as applied to women means "prostituting oneself" and in the case of men "consorting with prostitutes." Even the King James Version in some contexts translates one form of the noun, namely "pornos," as "whoremonger." (Ephesians 5:5; I Timothy 1:10, Hebrews 13:4, Revelation 21:8). The feminine form of "pornos" is "pornā" and is usually translated as "harlot" or "prostitute."

The word meant much more than prostitution. Here is a good article with the author's conclusion in case you aren't interested in reading the article:

http://christcenteredsexuality.files.wo ... ations.pdf

After a careful and thorough analysis of scripture both in its original language and modern
translations, along with the use of multiple bible dictionaries and lexicons, light can now be shed
upon what seems to be the proper limitations to porneia in Matthew 19:9. After a careful analysis
within this study it should be noted that, porneia in its fullest extent includes any sexual activity that
has intercourse as part of its practice. With this said, it is both unclear and far reaching to say that
Jesus meant pornography, masturbation, and lust when he used the word porneia as a permitted
exception for divorce. To open the door this widely and therefore stretch the meaning of porneia
beyond its limitations would, hold too loosely the sanctity of the marital bond and open too widely
the door of divorce. On the other hand, it should be noted that homosexuality, bestiality,
prostitution, incest, adultery, and any other sexual activity that includes sexual intercourse—both
vaginally and anally—is, the closest meaning to porneia in Matthew 19:9. This final definition is based
on a careful exegesis of the Greek word porneia (πορνεία), lexical and bible dictionary definitions,
and the uniqueness of sexual intercourse throughout scripture.