Questions for Trinitarians
- _SoaringEagle
- Posts: 285
- Joined: Sat Nov 19, 2005 10:40 pm
- Location: Louisville, KY
Questions for Trinitarians
I currently hold to a Trinitarian view of God, but recently come across some good questions, and am beginning to wonder if God truly is Trinity. I was wondering what others thought of the following ones, and how they would answer. How would you answer them?
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The Bible is the Word of God. It tells us about the life and death — and resurrected life — of the greatest man who ever lived. His name is Jesus Christ. For centuries men have debated the identity of this unique man. Was he God? Was he a “mere” man? How did he do the things he did?
We assert that the answers lie in the Bible. If so, the question is: “What does the Bible say?” Here is a list of logical questions, with pertinent scripture verses, to help us know whether or not Jesus is God Almighty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #1: If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
God cannot die, yet Jesus was killed and then resurrected (Acts 5:30). The Bible does not say that only his “human nature” died; it says that Jesus died, which would include all of Jesus (100%).
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #2: How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?
The God of the Bible is the Almighty, the Creator, the Most High, and no one compares to Him. Jesus Christ cannot be “God” if he says that our heavenly Father is his “God.”
You cannot be the “Most High God” and be in submission to the “Most High God” (1 Cor.15:28) and say that He is your God. This makes no sense.
If words truly have meaning, then one cannot be “God” and have a “God” at the same time.
Check out the verses below that clearly show that our Father is the “God” of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Romans 15:6
…so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort…
Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
The above verses are very clear. Jesus Christ has a God. Who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? Ephesians 1:17 very clearly says that this God is our glorious Father.
Jesus Christ himself called our Father his “God” and Father many different times in Scripture.
John 20:17 (KJV)
…I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #3: If Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God in heaven when the book of Revelation was written, why does Jesus continue to make such clear statements that our heavenly Father is his “God” if he himself is God?
Revelation 1:6
…[Jesus] has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #4: If God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted in every way we are, how can he be God?
James 1:13
For God cannot be tempted by evil.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
The Bible never says that Jesus’ “human nature” was tempted, it says “Jesus” was tempted. Nowhere does it say that “part” of Jesus was tempted; it was “all” of him. If Jesus is God, this is a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #5: If Jesus is God, then why does he pray to God and call Him “the only true God” in John 17:3?
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
In this verse, Jesus Christ makes a clear distinction between “the only true God” and himself. Jesus called his Father “the only true God,” and that doesn’t leave any room for Jesus to also be “God.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #6: If Jesus is God, why did he pray at all?
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
He would have been praying to himself, or another “part” of himself. Did he do it for our benefit alone? To be an example for us? If Jesus were praying to himself, or another part of himself, then he was just “acting.” It wasn’t real prayer (the way we know it), because we don’t pray to ourselves, we pray to God.
Was Jesus just “acting” when he was in the Garden of Gethsemane praying to God that there be another way, that “if it is possible, that the cup be taken” from him? He was asking God if there was another way (i.e., another way beside dying a horrible death on a cross). If Jesus is God, then all of his prayers “to God” make him look rather ludicrous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #7: If Jesus is God, why did he say to his disciples: “Trust in God; trust also in me”?
John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”
Notice that Jesus didn’t say “the Father,” he just said “God.” Jesus once again makes a clear distinction between himself and God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #8: According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus?
John 14:28
“I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
(27) For he (God) "has put everything under his (Jesus) feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
(28) When he (God) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (God) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.
Clearly, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 nullifies the idea that Jesus is God. It says: “Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.”
How could God make it more plain?
Then it goes on to say: “Then the Son himself will be made subject to him (God) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.”
Right now Jesus is exalted at the right hand of God, given all authority in Heaven and on Earth, and is “functionally” equal with God. But after Jesus has finished the job of restoring paradise, he will eventually be “made subject” to God, so that God may be all in all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Logically, you can’t be 100% of one thing and then even “a little” of something else. That is, if words and numbers have definite meanings.
Question #9: How can Jesus “be like us in every way” and still be “100% man and 100% God”?
Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
If Jesus is God and also “like us in every way,” that means we are all 100% man and 100% God. This makes no sense. Either Jesus is not God and truly like us in all ways (a man), or he is God and so are we.
What makes more sense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Devil and demons call Jesus the Son of God.
Question #10: If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, why would the Devil tempt Jesus?
The Bible says that “God cannot be tempted” (James 1:13) and we know that the Devil knows Scripture because he quoted it while trying to tempt Jesus (Matt. 4:6). The Devil is totally evil and persistent, but he is not dumb.
Why did the Devil continue to ask Jesus “if you are the Son of God…” when he was tempting him?
Wouldn’t the Devil (Lucifer) and his demons know if they were speaking with the Almighty Himself?
In fact, he tauntingly said to Jesus:
Matthew 4:3
…“If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
Matthew 4:6
If you are the Son of God, he said, throw yourself down.
The Devil knew that Jesus was a man, the Son of God, and the promised Messiah, and that is why he did his best to try to get him to sin. The Devil knew that if he could get Jesus to sin one time, he could not be the perfect sacrifice that was necessary for the forgiveness of our sins.
We believe that Jesus Christ is a unique man because he is the only man who was born of a virgin, who is the Last Adam, who by his free will choices to trust God lived a sinless life, always doing the will of his Father. He died as the perfect sacrifice for our sins so that we too could have a relationship with God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Savior, our Lord, and our Brother. Because of his obedience, God promoted Jesus to the highest place possible – "Lord" over heaven and earth (Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18). He is now the Head of the Church, working with us to make known God’s love and truth on this earth. He is our Lord and we love him
-------------------------------
The Bible is the Word of God. It tells us about the life and death — and resurrected life — of the greatest man who ever lived. His name is Jesus Christ. For centuries men have debated the identity of this unique man. Was he God? Was he a “mere” man? How did he do the things he did?
We assert that the answers lie in the Bible. If so, the question is: “What does the Bible say?” Here is a list of logical questions, with pertinent scripture verses, to help us know whether or not Jesus is God Almighty.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #1: If Jesus is God, how could he die for our sins?
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
God cannot die, yet Jesus was killed and then resurrected (Acts 5:30). The Bible does not say that only his “human nature” died; it says that Jesus died, which would include all of Jesus (100%).
1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #2: How can Jesus be “God” and have a “God” at the same time?
The God of the Bible is the Almighty, the Creator, the Most High, and no one compares to Him. Jesus Christ cannot be “God” if he says that our heavenly Father is his “God.”
You cannot be the “Most High God” and be in submission to the “Most High God” (1 Cor.15:28) and say that He is your God. This makes no sense.
If words truly have meaning, then one cannot be “God” and have a “God” at the same time.
Check out the verses below that clearly show that our Father is the “God” of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Ephesians 1:17
I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Romans 15:6
…so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort…
Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!
The above verses are very clear. Jesus Christ has a God. Who is the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? Ephesians 1:17 very clearly says that this God is our glorious Father.
Jesus Christ himself called our Father his “God” and Father many different times in Scripture.
John 20:17 (KJV)
…I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'"
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #3: If Jesus was sitting at the right hand of God in heaven when the book of Revelation was written, why does Jesus continue to make such clear statements that our heavenly Father is his “God” if he himself is God?
Revelation 1:6
…[Jesus] has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father-- to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.
Revelation 3:12
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #4: If God cannot be tempted by evil, yet Jesus was tempted in every way we are, how can he be God?
James 1:13
For God cannot be tempted by evil.
Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin.
The Bible never says that Jesus’ “human nature” was tempted, it says “Jesus” was tempted. Nowhere does it say that “part” of Jesus was tempted; it was “all” of him. If Jesus is God, this is a clear contradiction. Fortunately, Jesus is the human Son of God, so there is no contradiction.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #5: If Jesus is God, then why does he pray to God and call Him “the only true God” in John 17:3?
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
In this verse, Jesus Christ makes a clear distinction between “the only true God” and himself. Jesus called his Father “the only true God,” and that doesn’t leave any room for Jesus to also be “God.”
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #6: If Jesus is God, why did he pray at all?
Luke 6:12
One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.
He would have been praying to himself, or another “part” of himself. Did he do it for our benefit alone? To be an example for us? If Jesus were praying to himself, or another part of himself, then he was just “acting.” It wasn’t real prayer (the way we know it), because we don’t pray to ourselves, we pray to God.
Was Jesus just “acting” when he was in the Garden of Gethsemane praying to God that there be another way, that “if it is possible, that the cup be taken” from him? He was asking God if there was another way (i.e., another way beside dying a horrible death on a cross). If Jesus is God, then all of his prayers “to God” make him look rather ludicrous.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #7: If Jesus is God, why did he say to his disciples: “Trust in God; trust also in me”?
John 14:1
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.”
Notice that Jesus didn’t say “the Father,” he just said “God.” Jesus once again makes a clear distinction between himself and God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question #8: According to the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father and Son are co-equal. If that is true, how can the Father be (in any way) greater than Jesus?
John 14:28
“I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.”
Mark 13:32
"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
1 Corinthians 15:27-28
(27) For he (God) "has put everything under his (Jesus) feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
(28) When he (God) has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him (God) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.
Clearly, 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 nullifies the idea that Jesus is God. It says: “Now when it says that ‘everything’ has been put under him (Jesus), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.”
How could God make it more plain?
Then it goes on to say: “Then the Son himself will be made subject to him (God) who put everything under him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.”
Right now Jesus is exalted at the right hand of God, given all authority in Heaven and on Earth, and is “functionally” equal with God. But after Jesus has finished the job of restoring paradise, he will eventually be “made subject” to God, so that God may be all in all.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The doctrine of the Trinity states that Jesus is 100% man and 100% God. Logically, you can’t be 100% of one thing and then even “a little” of something else. That is, if words and numbers have definite meanings.
Question #9: How can Jesus “be like us in every way” and still be “100% man and 100% God”?
Hebrews 2:17
For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.
If Jesus is God and also “like us in every way,” that means we are all 100% man and 100% God. This makes no sense. Either Jesus is not God and truly like us in all ways (a man), or he is God and so are we.
What makes more sense?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Devil and demons call Jesus the Son of God.
Question #10: If Jesus is God and God cannot be tempted, why would the Devil tempt Jesus?
The Bible says that “God cannot be tempted” (James 1:13) and we know that the Devil knows Scripture because he quoted it while trying to tempt Jesus (Matt. 4:6). The Devil is totally evil and persistent, but he is not dumb.
Why did the Devil continue to ask Jesus “if you are the Son of God…” when he was tempting him?
Wouldn’t the Devil (Lucifer) and his demons know if they were speaking with the Almighty Himself?
In fact, he tauntingly said to Jesus:
Matthew 4:3
…“If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
Matthew 4:6
If you are the Son of God, he said, throw yourself down.
The Devil knew that Jesus was a man, the Son of God, and the promised Messiah, and that is why he did his best to try to get him to sin. The Devil knew that if he could get Jesus to sin one time, he could not be the perfect sacrifice that was necessary for the forgiveness of our sins.
We believe that Jesus Christ is a unique man because he is the only man who was born of a virgin, who is the Last Adam, who by his free will choices to trust God lived a sinless life, always doing the will of his Father. He died as the perfect sacrifice for our sins so that we too could have a relationship with God. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, our Savior, our Lord, and our Brother. Because of his obedience, God promoted Jesus to the highest place possible – "Lord" over heaven and earth (Acts 2:36; Matt. 28:18). He is now the Head of the Church, working with us to make known God’s love and truth on this earth. He is our Lord and we love him
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
There are no new challenges here to the trinity doctrine. They are good questions, and not easily answered, but they are not new.
The reason there is a trinity doctrine at all is that there are many scriptures that distinguish between Jesus and the Father (or "God"), as these questions indicate, but there are also many scriptures that make Christ out to be God in the flesh (e.g. Isa. 9:6/ John 1:1, 14/ John 8:58/ Col.2:9/ Titus 2:13/ Rev.1:8, 17-18; etc.).
It is fair to pose questions like "Why would it say that Jesus has a God, if He Himself is, in fact, God?" But it should not be assumed that the questions are unanswerable. If they are posed as rhetorical questions (assuming that no reasonable answer can exist), then this line of reasoning is susceptible to the very same kind of retort: "Why is Jesus called 'the Almighty' and 'the mighty God,' if He is not God?" There may be plausible answers that we can imagine, but our concern should not be "Can I think of a plausible answer?" but, rather, "Can we discover the true answer?"
In my opinion, a doctrine of God and Christ must be sought which answers all of the questions, on both sides, without straining or twisting the data.
To my mind, only some form of trinity doctrine is capable of doing this, though some of the traditional formulations may need to be rethought. For example, the statement that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man has always struck me as silly, and has no basis in scripture. Unless "God" and "man" are the same thing, no one can be 100% of each, unless His total composition equals 200%—which is absurd.
The Bible does not require that we embrace absurdities, but it may call upon us to bow to mysteries, where inadequate data is provided, or where an adequate frame of reference is not available to us for exact comparisons.
To say that God is one God, in a certain sense, and that He is three in the same sense, would be an absurdity. However, to say that God is one, in a certain sense, and He is three, in a different sense, is not absurd (my family, for example, is one, in a certain semse, but six, in another sense). Grasping the exact "sense" in which God is one, and the "sense" in which God is three may be impossible, given the amount of information provided, and is thus mysterious—but not absurd.
My own understanding of the two natures of Christ provides me with satisfying answers to all of the above questions, and sometime I may find the time to answer them all here. However, my answers are not what is important. What is important is that we do not settle for a solution that fails to satisfy all the scriptural data. If our present understanding does not accommodate all the facts, then we simply must continue our quest until we hit upon something that does. When we do, we will, no doubt, have found the truth of the matter.
The reason there is a trinity doctrine at all is that there are many scriptures that distinguish between Jesus and the Father (or "God"), as these questions indicate, but there are also many scriptures that make Christ out to be God in the flesh (e.g. Isa. 9:6/ John 1:1, 14/ John 8:58/ Col.2:9/ Titus 2:13/ Rev.1:8, 17-18; etc.).
It is fair to pose questions like "Why would it say that Jesus has a God, if He Himself is, in fact, God?" But it should not be assumed that the questions are unanswerable. If they are posed as rhetorical questions (assuming that no reasonable answer can exist), then this line of reasoning is susceptible to the very same kind of retort: "Why is Jesus called 'the Almighty' and 'the mighty God,' if He is not God?" There may be plausible answers that we can imagine, but our concern should not be "Can I think of a plausible answer?" but, rather, "Can we discover the true answer?"
In my opinion, a doctrine of God and Christ must be sought which answers all of the questions, on both sides, without straining or twisting the data.
To my mind, only some form of trinity doctrine is capable of doing this, though some of the traditional formulations may need to be rethought. For example, the statement that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man has always struck me as silly, and has no basis in scripture. Unless "God" and "man" are the same thing, no one can be 100% of each, unless His total composition equals 200%—which is absurd.
The Bible does not require that we embrace absurdities, but it may call upon us to bow to mysteries, where inadequate data is provided, or where an adequate frame of reference is not available to us for exact comparisons.
To say that God is one God, in a certain sense, and that He is three in the same sense, would be an absurdity. However, to say that God is one, in a certain sense, and He is three, in a different sense, is not absurd (my family, for example, is one, in a certain semse, but six, in another sense). Grasping the exact "sense" in which God is one, and the "sense" in which God is three may be impossible, given the amount of information provided, and is thus mysterious—but not absurd.
My own understanding of the two natures of Christ provides me with satisfying answers to all of the above questions, and sometime I may find the time to answer them all here. However, my answers are not what is important. What is important is that we do not settle for a solution that fails to satisfy all the scriptural data. If our present understanding does not accommodate all the facts, then we simply must continue our quest until we hit upon something that does. When we do, we will, no doubt, have found the truth of the matter.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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Hi Steve,Steve wrote:To say that God is one God, in a certain sense, and that He is three in the same sense, would be an absurdity. However, to say that God is one, in a certain sense, and He is three, in a different sense, is not absurd (my family, for example, is one, in a certain semse, but six, in another sense). Grasping the exact "sense" in which God is one, and the "sense" in which God is three may be impossible, given the amount of information provided, and is thus mysterious—but not absurd.
Does the traditional (or orthodox) doctrine of the Trinity teach that God is both one and three in the same sense, or does it teach that God is one in a certain sense and three in a different sense?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
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The tough thing for me is not that Christ is diety or God it's the Holy Spirit being an independent person. The same word "numa" is used for Spirit in many other sutuations like spirit of truth,evil spirit,Paul's spirit,Christ's spirit,Holy Spirit etc etc. In the OT there isn't a hint that the Spirit of God is a person to my knowledge. Human attributes are given to wisdom in Proverbs 8 so it's not unique to employ that description to an extension of a being so that does'nt seem compelling to me.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
To Guest:
Traditionally, God is said to be one in one sense (in "essence"), and three in another sense (in "person"). This prevents the trinity doctrine from succumbing to the charge of absurdity.
Traditionally, God is said to be one in one sense (in "essence"), and three in another sense (in "person"). This prevents the trinity doctrine from succumbing to the charge of absurdity.
Last edited by FAST WebCrawler [Crawler] on Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
- _Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Dear Steve,Steve wrote:To Guest:
Traditionally, God is said to be one in one sense (in "essence"), and three in another sense (in "person"). This prevents the trinity doctrine from the charge of absurdity.
"Guest" was me. I forgot to log in.

Thanks for your answer. I always thought the mystery of the Trinity was that God is both "one" and "three" in the same sense. At least now the concept of the Trinity is less of a mystery to me as I have removed this absurdity.
The prophecy in Isaiah 9:6 identifies Jesus as the Eternal (or Everlasting) Father. I suppose therefore it would be an absurdity to interpret Isaiah 9:6 as saying that the person Jesus is the person God the Father. Therefore to have any sense, the prophecy would be referring to their essence rather than their individual persons. Or alternatively, perhaps the language might be referring to Jesus being the "father" of the church universal (just as Paul might say he was a father to the Corinthian believers - 1Co 4:15).
[I use person and essence in their traditional understanding as I remember you saying that these words are not found in the Bible.]
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho
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I think that Isaiah 9.6 means that since Christ is Creator of the universe he is our "Everlasting Father" not God the Father.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
- _Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Scanned through my commentaries, these are alternative meanings:
(1) "Father" as a synonym for "king" (since the passage is predicting a king) and as a parallel to "child" (For unto us a child); and "everlasting" refers to the length of his reign.
(2) Meaning "Father of Eternity" as Jesus is the source of eternal life since eternal life is conferred on those who believe in Him.
Surprisingly (at least to me) none of the commentaries I looked at equated the term "everlasting father" with God the Father.
(1) "Father" as a synonym for "king" (since the passage is predicting a king) and as a parallel to "child" (For unto us a child); and "everlasting" refers to the length of his reign.
(2) Meaning "Father of Eternity" as Jesus is the source of eternal life since eternal life is conferred on those who believe in Him.
Surprisingly (at least to me) none of the commentaries I looked at equated the term "everlasting father" with God the Father.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho
- _Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Hi Steve (Gregg),
Not sure if I first heard the phrase "a committee of three" from you. I'm thinking that essence and persons may be understood that way, i.e. "a committee (essence) of three (persons)". Or similarly "a family (essence) of three (persons)". In other words, any one person of the three could represent the whole. Is that what the doctrine of trinity teaches?
By the way, isn't the doctrine of Jesus being both God and man a different one (albeit related) from that of the Trinity?
Not sure if I first heard the phrase "a committee of three" from you. I'm thinking that essence and persons may be understood that way, i.e. "a committee (essence) of three (persons)". Or similarly "a family (essence) of three (persons)". In other words, any one person of the three could represent the whole. Is that what the doctrine of trinity teaches?
By the way, isn't the doctrine of Jesus being both God and man a different one (albeit related) from that of the Trinity?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho
- _Benjamin Ho
- Posts: 137
- Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 8:16 am
- Location: Singapore
Sorry for having hijacked the original subject. Just a little bit more about person and essence. I just found this from the study notes in the NET Bible for John 1:1c.
http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.ph ... okup+Verse
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.
http://www.bible.org/netbible2/index.ph ... okup+Verse
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.
sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 (“The Father and I are one”), 17:11 (“so that they may be one just as we are one”), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God (this is ruled out by 1:1b, “the Word was with God”); rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Grace and peace,
Benjamin Ho
Benjamin Ho