The Word as a person of the trinity

Post Reply
User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by Homer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:49 am

Hi Darrin,

You wrote:
Perhaps the same way I might say "my mind tricked me." We personify things regularly as a matter of speech, and the bible is no exception.
But it seems odd to me that Luke would do this in reference to God and repeat it in verse 4:

So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.

For your consideration regarding the Holy Spirit being personal rather than being an inanimate power, or force, I would offer the following comments and scriptures:

Matthew 28:19 (All scriptures from New King James Version)
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Here Jesus commands baptism in (Greek preposition eis which literally means into) the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The phase "into the name of" is only used in scripture in reference to an act done with regard to a person. It does not seem credible to me that Jesus meant we are baptised into an inanimate power.

And in the following Psalm, God is said to be present in His Spirit. (We have a form of Hebrew poetry known as "synonymous parallelism" wherin the second line says the same thing in different terms.) God is a spirit,and is present in His Spirit:

Psalm 139:7
Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?


And in Isaiah God's Spirit can be grieved. The Hebrew word here translated grieved is awtsab, meaning to worry, feel pain, be angered:

Isaiah 63:10-14
10. But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit;
So He turned Himself against them as an enemy,
And He fought against them.
11. Then he remembered the days of old,
Moses and his people, saying:

“ Where is He who brought them up out of the sea
With the shepherd of His flock?
Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them,
12. Who led them by the right hand of Moses,
With His glorious arm,
Dividing the water before them
To make for Himself an everlasting name,
13. Who led them through the deep,
As a horse in the wilderness,
That they might not stumble?”
14. As a beast goes down into the valley,
And the Spirit of the LORD causes him to rest,
So You lead Your people,
To make Yourself a glorious name.


We find the same expressed of the Spirit in Ephesians where the Greek word lupeo is used. Lupeo means to distress, sorrow, grieve. So we again see emotions attributed to the Holy Spirit:

Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


Jesus promised He would personally be present "where two or three are gathered in my name". But this is fulfilled by the personal presence of the Spirit. I believe Jesus' presence is personal in the Holy Spirit:

John 14:18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.


Jesus is present when His people gather.

The Holy Spirit will both teach and bring things to the remembrance of the apostles:

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


The Holy Spirit hears, guides, and speaks:

John 16:13-14
13.However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.


Does not the passage reference getting a message from another of the trinity and glorifying another of the trinity? How is this passage to be explained in another way that makes sense of it?

I realize you have perhaps looked at all these passages and considered them inadequate to suppport the trinitarian position but it is difficult for me to view the Holy Spirit as inanimate when the Spirit is repeatedly referred to as acting and experiencing feelings as persons do.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:06 am

Homer, I think you mistake my position and supposition --- I don't see it as an inanimate power any more than I consider my mind an inanimate power -- it is part of who I am and is very personal to me. In the same way, perhaps the Holy Spirit is the spiritual essence of the Son and is the very essence of the Father. Also, being baptised into the name of the Son is not necessarily a proof of the Son's being a part of the godhead. It is the path to the Father that baptism represents. It could be shorthand for -- in the name of the God and His son through whom God's Spirit animated and empowered Him to do the Father's perfect will. It's confusing to us because its sui generis. We try to correlate it to our reality at our peril and at risk of error. The manner in which the Son and the man Jesus (if there is a distinction, theologically) ARE God or have attributes of God or are extensions of God or are worthy of being praised and worshipped akin to God is not told to us in ANY way and I can take the individual truths of something as mysterious and unrevealed as this without having to formulate an artifice to satisfy my need for doctrine -- that is all. (oh, yeah -- and Matthew 28:19 has been highly controversial as to whether it's genuine based on manuscript evidence)

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by Homer » Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:01 am

Hi darrin,

No disagreement with what you said. I think "God in three persons, blessed trinity" goes a bit further than the scriptures. One God, three persons (individuals? a committee?) is a little hard for me feeble mind to grasp. Yet, in some sense, Jesus is equal with God (or was?) and worthy of worship. But it does seem at times that Jesus receives more worship than the father.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:40 pm

Where do you see more worship of Jesus than the Father?

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by Homer » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:38 pm

Where do you see more worship of Jesus than the Father?
Just an impression, but now I am going to have to keep track. If you google something like "Jesus worshipped more than God" you will see that it is not an uncommon impression.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 15, 2013 10:45 pm

Homer wrote:
Where do you see more worship of Jesus than the Father?
I thought you meant "in Scripture." I agree with you as to modern evangelism.

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1921
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by mattrose » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:23 pm

Darin.... suppose you came to a conclusion that Jesus was not divine.

Would you then say there is really no such thing as incarnation?

I'm not even sure the atonement works if Jesus isn't divine... at least not my understanding of the atonement.

Just curious. I can certainly understand questioning the individuality of the Spirit more than I can understand questioning the divine status of Jesus (if that is indeed one of the things you are questioning). I see new confirmations of Jesus' divine status nearly every day in Scripture it seems.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:41 am

mattrose wrote:Darin.... suppose you came to a conclusion that Jesus was not divine.

Would you then say there is really no such thing as incarnation?

I'm not even sure the atonement works if Jesus isn't divine... at least not my understanding of the atonement.

Just curious. I can certainly understand questioning the individuality of the Spirit more than I can understand questioning the divine status of Jesus (if that is indeed one of the things you are questioning). I see new confirmations of Jesus' divine status nearly every day in Scripture it seems.
I'll think on this further, but it depends what you need incarnate to mean. Also, since we're trying to be precise and complete in our theology, don't confuse "divine" with "eternally God from all eternity."

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:41 am

Matt, have you done a word study on genomai? Looks like it has a wide semantic range including "fulfilled in". So could the verse be translated "the eternal thoughts and plans of God were made know by or fulfilled in flesh form?"

I have no problem with " Embodied in" since Jesus was the exact image of God and reflected the nature of the Father. But What does a Trinitarian do with "if you have seen me you have seen the Father?" I know it's a proof text for the godhood of Jesus, but if they're the same, how does a Trinitarian also maintain separate personhood?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Word as a person of the trinity

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:09 pm

mattrose wrote:I'm not even sure the atonement works if Jesus isn't divine... at least not my understanding of the atonement.
I've been thinking more about this -- what aspect of the atonement wouldn't work if Jesus wasn't part of the godhead?

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”