Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

[steve7150]

Judgment on Sin.

Sodom, Tyre, Moab, Babylon, Egypt etc. all were judged because they were ‘sinners’.
Do we think God punishes one nation for being proud and haughty and allow another to pass by without notice? Do we think God destroys one nation for idolatry and harlotry and lets another go by without being punished? No these things happened as an example of what to expect if we do not repent of our sins. Many people do escape punishment in this world but these Judgments are meant to make us shudder at the thought that we too will face a judgment by the same God who judged these nations. Israel made that mistake, they assumed that since they were Gods chosen that they wouldn’t fall under the same judgment, but they did.






Of course after the resurrection we are judged at the great white throne judgment by what we have done. The issue is whether judgment can incorporate restoration as well as punishment. I think several things indicate that this is the case such as the leaves of the tree of life are for the healing of the nations (end of Revelation). I think nations would include the majority of folks in each nation at least. The walls of New Jerusalem are always open i think so folks can come in. A few verses before the end of Rev (22.17) The Holy Spirit and the Bride invite anyone (who is still left) to drink from the water of life.

So it's not a matter of whether there is judgment or not, it's whether God wants the unbeliever to receive more then punishment and retribution. God has told us his will, so i think he does.

[steve]

jriccitelli,

I will repeat:

could you please present three or four of the judgment passages from the Old Testament (where most of your cited texts are found) which you believe give internal or contextual evidence of referring to judgment beyond the grave?

I don't mean a hundred lines of cut-and-paste text with half a dozen lines underlined. This is not explanation. Please simply provide the lines which you think should be underlined, and give your reasons for applying them to postmortem punishment. It should be a simple exercise, if the evidence is favorable to your interpretations.

I saw your underlining, though I did not see any explanation of why anyone should see these passages as describing postmortem judgments. That is what I requested.

You wrote:

All these Judgments are warnings to Everyone! It says all these things were written as our ‘example’.

You say that all those judgments were examples for us. I think you must be referring to 1 Corinthians 10:6 and 11. These verses tell us that what happened to Israel in the wilderness happened as examples to us. I am not aware of any passage that affirms what you are saying about the judgments on later Israel, Judah, Edom, Egypt, etc. being examples to us. Were you thinking of some passage I am forgetting?

If we allow that these are examples to us, what are they examples of? As near as I can tell, they refer to judgments occurring here on earth to corrupt societies. If this is an example to us, it would seem to be a warning that, if our society becomes corrupt like those ones, then similar temporal judgments can be expected. You seem to admit this yourself, when you say:

Even common disasters are warnings of our temporal balance between life and death

Life and death, yes. But how would warnings about life and death convey information about what occurs after death?

Are you hoping that no one will notice that you are using many words to dodge my simple request for evidence? Well, I noticed, and I doubt if anyone else failed to do so. If you get tired of dodging, there is an alternative approach. You could say something like: "I apologize. I was wrong in suggesting that these passages can legitimately be used to support the point that I am affirming." Are you ready to admit that no such evidence as I am requesting for your assertion can be given, or would you prefer to make another run at it?

[Michelle]

Something has been bothering me all weekend, so I'm just going to get it over with and ask:

jriccitelli,

Back on Dec. 27, when you posted the passage from Jeremiah 31, I'm sure your point was that a remnant was saved. Just a remnant. 'Remnant' seems to be an important word for you, and I think it is an interesting point in this discussion. But, putting that aside for a moment, your choice of scripture seems unfortunate (to me, at least) because this beautiful passage is about God hearing Ephraim's cry from exile and restoring him as a beloved son. Wouldn't that be repentance after judgement? Couldn't a person (me, for instance) see this as a scripture as evidence of God's restoration for a repentant child who recognizes the error of his way because of the suffering that was (justly) inflicted upon him?

[john6809]

jriccitelli,
I also am loathe to join this discussion since it seems to have become a conversation between two individuals and I don't want to add, to either person, the burden of answering questions from an additional source. The conversation, I think, is difficult enough as it is.

Everybody (I think) understands that you are saying, "Sin begets judgement." And I don't think anyone disagrees with you on that point.

Jeremiah 25:8-12 says, Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, “Because you have not obeyed My words, behold, I will send and take all the families of the north . . . and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land, and against its inhabitants, and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them, and make them a horror, and a hissing, and an everlasting desolation. Moreover, I will take from them the voice of joy and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones and the light of the lamp. And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. Then it will be when seventy years are completed I will punish the king of Babylon and that nation,” declares the LORD, “for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it an everlasting desolation.” (NASB) Jer. 25:8-12

This is an obvious reference to a very temporal judgement against Israel because of their disobedience. In other words, this "judgement of God against Israel" actually happened when they were exiled to Babylon. That exile ended, according to God's promise (long before any judgement of eternal significance). Yes, those killed during this temporal judgement were to face God in the final judgement, but that doesn't seem to be the focus of the judgement herein described. What does this particular passage have to do with eternal judgement? What further evidence can you provide that shows that we are to understand this threat of temporal judgement, (which was fulfilled temporally) was meant for us in order that we might understand that this same judgement was to have a double meaning, namely, that sin results in a post mortem judgement of destruction in addition to merely a temporal judgement?

Just so that you understand, I believe that much of the old testament judgements (if not all) were fulfilled in like manner to the above example.

Thanks for your time.
John

[jriccitelli]

I appreciate the posts, I have stated that I would like to hear from anyone who agrees or disagrees with UR, whether it is supportive, either or ither. I am trying to establish what the root of the difference is between the two views no matter a person’s personal persuasion.

Michelle, I picked that chapter ‘because’ it is profound, beautiful, and full of Hope – and yet it is surrounded by destructive judgments, from God, by man, and surrounded by unrepentant disobedient people who ‘still’ refuse to obey. And in the same ‘context’ there is a ‘remnant’ and there is repentance. We don’t forget all the surrounding verse that demands repentance as a mandate –of our own freewill – and Ephraim although a son, had to turn and come back, as the same chapter reminds us ‘each will die and be judged for their own iniquities as it states in detail chapter 31:30 (as I think underlines the heading of this thread). You make my point; I see the positive portions of this chapter as descriptive of the future as well as the ones of Judgment; The New Covenant and blessings cannot be removed from the surrounding text of Judgment;

For I am with you,’ declares the LORD, ‘to save you;
For I will destroy completely all the nations where I have scattered you,
Only I will not destroy you completely.
But I will chasten you justly
And will by no means leave you unpunished.’ (Jer30:11)

The nations around them are destroyed completely, and they are saved, yet all waiting their final day of judgment.

…The officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf— I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. (Jer.34:19-20)

Jeremiah continues to speak of Judgment on sinners and Israel and yet this is the same language used in Revelations, why is it the same language?

John I just saw your post and I will only have time to note, before I post what I already wrote.
Your question makes my point also; “What does this particular passage have to do with eternal judgement? What further evidence can you provide that shows that we are to understand this threat of temporal judgement”


My point is the language, and character of God does not change. Jesus is the Lord, and Jesus will be Judge, as God describes Judgment on sinners so we should believe He means what he says as we are no less sinners. Jeremiah just had another run in with the false prophets who declared peace, and still Hananiah is right around the corner promising the same thing – peace when there is no peace (Jer23:25, Jer 28);

And the LORD has sent to you all His servants the prophets again and again, but you have not listened nor inclined your ear to hear, 5 saying, ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds, and dwell on the land which the LORD has given to you and your forefathers forever and ever; 6and do not go after other gods to serve them and to worship them, and do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands, and I will do you no harm.’ 7“Yet you have not listened to Me,” declares the LORD, “in order that you might provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands to your own harm. 8“Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘Because you have not obeyed My words, 9behold, I will send and take all the families of the north,’ declares the LORD, ‘and I will send to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, My servant, and will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will utterly destroy them…

The fact that God does not change and the language stays the same, is 'why' I believe this describes post mortem judgments.

If when we; ‘Turn now everyone from his evil way and from the evil of your deeds”, and “do not provoke Me to anger with the work of your hands” then we can expect His anger will turn from us, am I wrong to think this, or does this only apply to them? Is not the rebuke; “Yet you have not listened to Me”, and “Because you have not obeyed My words” not apply to us as a warning also, only them, and never post-mortem?

[jriccitelli]

The Bible can both condemn man and save man simply by opening it and reading it, it was not meant to be a curiosity, without relevance, or full of hidden messages.
I don’t believe the Bible is hard to understand, and it should have an effect on the casual reader, that is how a sensible author would write a book.

Are you telling me (and others) that God changes once we die?
Are you saying that after we die, God will not be the God we read about in scripture?
Are you teaching me that the things that God has used to describe Himself will also be changed in their character – post mortem – fire is now soap, destruction is now restoration, desolation is population, gloom and doom is light and corrective?

I might even understand you to be saying we can glean nothing from Old Testament Prophets about the Justice and Judgments of God, because if you die before you are punished you get to avoid punishment, certainly makes suicide more attractive to the wicked.
I have long said about suicide ‘your death wont change anything but speed up the day of your judgment’. Nothing changes as far as I can tell ‘If’ you do not repent, God seems pretty concerned with what people did while alive in this world, God tests them, their works, He demands our Faith, obedience, forgiveness and good deeds, He watches our walk, our conversation, this world is our testing grounds. If some die without a good chance to consider and repent, then God will grant them that, but to ignore His words (which most likely describe His intent), and redefine meanings of words to almost eliminate the meaning they convey – that is the work of deception.

The language used by the Prophets is almost word for word what we read in Revelations, a preterist might think all the judgments are over with, but anyone who does not hold to preterist opinions is free to think otherwise. I consider most biblical judgments are examples of what will happen on that Great and Terrible Day promised in scripture. I agree that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled a lot of prophecy but it stops way short of fulfilling all descriptions of what appears to be, and ‘must’ be, a judgment upon ‘all’ Mankind.
When I say ‘must’ I mean that for God to fulfill Justice – as He said He would do – death will not prevent God from bringing people to justice, ‘we will all be called upon to give an account of our lives before God’, how else will He Judge the world if the living and the already dead are not judged equally?

Justice, judgment payment and penalty are very biblical precepts; it would be unjust not to punish unrepentant sin. God promised He would bring justice upon wicked men, murderers and all the corrupt injustices perpetrated upon others since the time of Able.
You do not really believe these people will escape justice do you?
The punishment each person receives for his own sins will differ in degree for each rebellious person but still it is the same God who describes Himself in scripture. If God uses a rod, or darkness, or frogs, or a sword, or a stick on me it isn’t going to matter to me what scripture it comes from it is all ‘punishment’ and ‘punishment is what God promised.

Although much of the post mortem world was understated before the Gospels, the New Testament writers used the same language, same scriptures and same ideas of Old Testament Prophets, which would leave one to think this is the same God with the same promises. Promises of Life, joy, reward, restoration, etc. to those who fear Him, ‘and’ promises of punishments and destruction to those who hate Him.

I do not see anything changing with death, Gods promises are exactly the same as before we died, and you seem to endorse this also, only I do not see any of the definitions, meanings, or examples of words changing, nor do I see any difference in Gods Plan nature or character as we have had described from Genesis to Revelations;

Alas, you who are longing for the day of the LORD,
For what purpose will the day of the LORD be to you?
It will be darkness and not light;
19 As when a man flees from a lion
And a bear meets him,
Or goes home, leans his hand against the wall
And a snake bites him.
20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light,
Even gloom with no brightness in it? (Amos 5:18-23)

If you are going to criticize all the Old Testament promises of judgment that don’t explicitly state they will also be post-mortem, then we are woefully deficient of promises of post-mortem blessings also. Are we to discard all such Old Testament descriptions of blessings, hope, vineyards, children, lands, and a King of Righteousness as being unusable to describe any future promises? As if we have been ‘fooled’ into thinking so?

It seems to me the Great day of the Lord Almighty’ is the day Christ our Lord. The God of Revelations is the God of Amos James and Peter;


Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door. (James 5:9)

‘In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God…. ‘For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?’ (1Peter 5:5-6, 17-18)

The Promised Land, a land flowing with milk and honey, where Abraham will receive his children, where a child can pick up a viper and play with a cobra, where the lion will eat grass like an ox and the land will be filled with righteousness etc. Are you saying we cannot expect any hope of the promises of scriptures in the Old Testament, because they don’t specifically state they are post-mortem? Are you saying that all the ‘good’ promises given us in the Old Testament provide no useful information about what occurs after death, if they do not specifically state they are post death?

[steve]

I have apparently wasted my time (far too much of it) trying to get you to participate in an exegetical discussion on this topic. I think I will step out of this discussion and allow others to answer your points. I have already done so, and it appears to have penetrated like water off a duck's back.

[Michelle]

jr, this is a pet peeve and is really probably overly picky on my part, but the last book in the Bible is Revelation. It is not plural. It is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants the things that must soon take place.

[john6809]

jriccitelli,
You wrote,

If you are going to criticize all the Old Testament promises of judgment that don’t explicitly state they will also be post-mortem, then we are woefully deficient of promises of post-mortem blessings also. Are we to discard all such Old Testament descriptions of blessings, hope, vineyards, children, lands, and a King of Righteousness as being unusable to describe any future promises? As if we have been ‘fooled’ into thinking so?

I am not critical of any OT promises, whether promises of destruction or promises of blessing. I simply cannot come to the understanding that you do. When a prophecy of judgement is predicted and then fulfilled (blatantly), I see no reason to look for a deeper meaning than what was plainly stated - unless another writer of scripture clearly states that it is so. That's the proof I am asking you for - another verse in scripture that states that God is intending to destroy/punish/judge everyone "in this same manner" after death. You keep on saying that UR believers think that people who die before they are judged temporally, will be let off the hook. I have not heard one person suggest this to be the case. I have heard many people say that the bible, whether in the OT or the NT, simply doesn't say much about what that judgement will look like, based on the lack of direct statements about it.

The same could be said about blessings. If God promised all the land to Israel, and they, at one time, owned all the land, then the promise was fulfilled. Why should I now assume that the same prophecy should also have another, post-mortem, understanding - unless explicitly stated. It seems that you base much of your understanding on inferences rather than direct teachings. I would think that to be a position where deception would be a much greater danger than taking scripture at face value.

[jriccitelli]

Steve said; 'I have apparently wasted my time (far too much of it) trying to get you to participate in an exegetical discussion on this topic. I think I will step out of this discussion and allow others to answer your points. I have already done so, and it appears to have penetrated like water off a duck's back'

I really do not want to waste anyone’s time, and I didn't want a conversation with an angry tone. But since I am in the habit of using apologetics I need to pick this back up again, the best use of my time is to encourage people to 'believe' what God has said, thus saving some from the fire.

It wouldn’t be much of a matter, but it seems that in order to embrace UR a person has to assume Gods OT words of Judgment have no application post-mortem. I do not see a reason for this. I see no indication from scripture to think any scriptural truth is going to change, or ‘that was for them not me’, just because we die or because it is post-mortem.

We use every ‘other’ subject of scripture in the OT as ‘inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness’. Most all our hopes of a Messiah and forgiveness are based on the OT; promises of peace, security, blessings and ‘justice’ all from scriptures in historical contexts. I see God keeping all His promises, and fulfilling His promises and bringing them ‘all’ to pass – and God will ‘continue’ to bring them to pass – just because God judged some already this way we have no reason to think God will ‘not continue to do so’. Most all of His Judgments were done as an example to others, and scripture says so, Paul says in Romans 15;

‘For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope’

Paul surrounds this verse with what, you guessed it ‘OT scripture’. In fact Romans 15:12 is from Isaiah chap.11, and Isaiah 11 continues;

5… ‘But with righteousness He will judge the poor,
And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth;
And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth,
And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked.
6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb,
And the leopard will lie down with the young goat,
And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together;
And a little boy will lead them.
7 Also the cow and the bear will graze… And the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra,
And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den.
9… For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
As the waters cover the sea.
10Then in that day
The nations will resort to the root of Jesse…
11 Then it will happen on that day that the Lord
Will again recover the second time with His hand
The remnant of His people, who will remain’

This has certainly not happened yet, and it is no use trying to spiritualize these predictions because they are well defined as 'going to happen'. Whether, or not, someone believes this has already happened – the point is that Paul does 'not' seem to think there is a problem in using a passage from Isaiah that is well within the context of coming events while surrounded by events of Isaiahs time (I understand the chronological order in Isaiah maybe of question, but that makes it even more applicable, I don’t think God is worried about the chronology because ‘all’ of it ‘will’ come to pass and all of it describes the same thing – Judgment on sinners!)
To make matters worse (for the unrepentant sinner) Isaiah continues on ‘after’ this remnant is saved and after saying;

“Then you will say on that day, “I will give thanks to You, O LORD; For although You were angry with me, Your anger is turned away, And You comfort me” (Isaiah 12:1)

Isaiah then goes right back to His prophecies against Babylon, and yet even these don’t seem to be final or complete, maybe that is why John is able to pick up the wording in Revelations yet ‘now’ it is the Romans, and yet it is Jerusalem being destroyed, and later its Rome being destroyed ‘just like’ Babylon, yet Isaiah finds no problem relating Babylon’s destruction to Sodom and Gomorrah as an ‘example’.
Isaiah goes on to pronounce judgment on Assyria, and Philista, Moab, Ethiopia and Egypt, yet it would be hard to discern who’s judgment is who’s without looking to see to whom the judgments are addressed ‘because’ all the judgments are worded, read and result in pretty much the same thing, except for the emphasis on God saving a ‘remnant’ of His people (and noted, a few others). The creative and vivid vocabulary may differ but the results are pretty much the same for every judgment ‘destruction, annihilation, ruin, terror, devastation and wailing’. I do not know how one cannot read a passage like Isaiah 13:9-16 and think they will be spared such a judgment simply because are not Babylonians;

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it.
10For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light.
11Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless.

If we ‘don’t’ think this could possibly apply to us, we may “have another thing coming” (as my mom used to say to me).