I know this topic gets brought up a lot on the radio show. I don't really care one way or the other myself. But I was just reading through Ephesians and I came across a verse that stood out to me that I don't think I've heard applied to this topic.
In Eph 3:14-15 it says
For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
So I was thinking, if soul sleep is true, then who of the family of God is in heaven? I don't think that angels can be included in the group that Paul is speaking of here. So that would seem to me to suggest that members of the family who have passed from this world are living on in heaven.
Thoughts?
soul sleep or soul awake?
Re: soul sleep or soul awake?
good morning Kyle,
I think what Paul means to communicate here is something more akin to God's constant reminder in the Hebrew scriptures. Where statements are made to the effect of, in six days God created the heavens, the earth and all that in them is. Sort of like, "remember who your God is, is there anything to hard for him?" So then, I think v. 15 is a general reminder that God is the source of all life, because he created everything that is in the heavens and upon the earth.
Paul has just told them not faint at his tribulation and that in Christ we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. To me this concept has always been an abounding source of encouragement in prayer. The fact that though I should tremble at even approaching such a Father, in Christ I have access without fear. It was at the point of learning this that psalm 23 and 121 became a bit overwhelming for me, because, the Lord being my shepard suddenly was the greatest revelation ever. Then I saw it as: Ye'hovah (the one who spoke everything into existence, the only one who has life within himself) is my (why would such an amazing being consider only a speck) shepard. I shall not want (I can know that what I have, is all I need).
I think something along those lines is what Paul has in mind, and I should probably add if this is to be understood as you say, then it would be the one time in all of Paul's writing's where he refers to the church explicitly with family. But I believe he has all of creation in mind instead.
grace and peace to you Kyle.
I think what Paul means to communicate here is something more akin to God's constant reminder in the Hebrew scriptures. Where statements are made to the effect of, in six days God created the heavens, the earth and all that in them is. Sort of like, "remember who your God is, is there anything to hard for him?" So then, I think v. 15 is a general reminder that God is the source of all life, because he created everything that is in the heavens and upon the earth.
Paul has just told them not faint at his tribulation and that in Christ we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. To me this concept has always been an abounding source of encouragement in prayer. The fact that though I should tremble at even approaching such a Father, in Christ I have access without fear. It was at the point of learning this that psalm 23 and 121 became a bit overwhelming for me, because, the Lord being my shepard suddenly was the greatest revelation ever. Then I saw it as: Ye'hovah (the one who spoke everything into existence, the only one who has life within himself) is my (why would such an amazing being consider only a speck) shepard. I shall not want (I can know that what I have, is all I need).
I think something along those lines is what Paul has in mind, and I should probably add if this is to be understood as you say, then it would be the one time in all of Paul's writing's where he refers to the church explicitly with family. But I believe he has all of creation in mind instead.
grace and peace to you Kyle.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.
Re: soul sleep or soul awake?
Again I must protest the appellation "soul sleep." It assumes a particular anthropological view — that human beings are compound entitites consisting of bodies inhabited by immaterial entitities which are labelled as "spirits" or "souls." Personally, I don't believe I have an immaterial spirit or soul which is my "real" identity and which inhabits my body and goes somewhere at death where it "sleeps" until the resurrection. I don't think Jeremiah holds that view either. I believe I exist as a single entity and that "body" and "mind" are two aspects of this holistic being which is myself. So if my view of "the intermediate state" must be labelled, I would rather it be labelled as "no soul" (if "soul" is used in a Platonic sense) or "soul death" (if "soul" is used in the sense of "self").
Concerning Ephesians 3:15, I have seen so used to reading this as the Father "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named" as in the RSV, ESV, YLT, Williams, and WEB, that I was quite surprised to read your quote of "the whole family." So I looked at other translations and found that the following render it as "the whole family": AV, NKJV, Murdoch, RWebster, and Weymouth. All of these seem to use the AV as the basis of their translation. I think the Greek better supports "every family."
The Greek word translated as "family" (πατρια) is a derivative of "father" (πατηρ), and since the text affirms that every πατρια in heaven and earth is named after the heavenly Father, then perhaps we should consider the following translations:
from whom all paternity in heaven and on earth is named (Darby, Douay)
from whom every fatherhood in heaven and on earth is named (Rotherham, ISA)
With this is mind, it may be observed that there is at least one Fatherhood in heaven, that of the Father whose Son who was "begotten before all ages" by the Father as the church of the first three centuries and even the original Nicene Creed affirmed. It would be appropriate even to call the Father and His Son "a Family." So clearly Ephesians 3:15 makes sense even though no human "souls" have ascended to heaven.
Concerning Ephesians 3:15, I have seen so used to reading this as the Father "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named" as in the RSV, ESV, YLT, Williams, and WEB, that I was quite surprised to read your quote of "the whole family." So I looked at other translations and found that the following render it as "the whole family": AV, NKJV, Murdoch, RWebster, and Weymouth. All of these seem to use the AV as the basis of their translation. I think the Greek better supports "every family."
The Greek word translated as "family" (πατρια) is a derivative of "father" (πατηρ), and since the text affirms that every πατρια in heaven and earth is named after the heavenly Father, then perhaps we should consider the following translations:
from whom all paternity in heaven and on earth is named (Darby, Douay)
from whom every fatherhood in heaven and on earth is named (Rotherham, ISA)
With this is mind, it may be observed that there is at least one Fatherhood in heaven, that of the Father whose Son who was "begotten before all ages" by the Father as the church of the first three centuries and even the original Nicene Creed affirmed. It would be appropriate even to call the Father and His Son "a Family." So clearly Ephesians 3:15 makes sense even though no human "souls" have ascended to heaven.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: soul sleep or soul awake?
Thanks for the replies guys, you always make me feel a little dumber. 
Paidion, leaving aside the issue of souls and so forth, I have a follow-up question for you. In light of your explanation of the Greek behind "family" as being more along the lines of "paternity/fatherhood", which groups/classes of persons/beings would you consider that term being applicable to in the NT as it is used in Eph 3:15?
Thanks for your insights both of you, sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread for a while.
-Kyle
P.S. I have been following somewhat your responses in the "Are we immortal or not?" thread, but sometimes I get dizzy.
Paidion, leaving aside the issue of souls and so forth, I have a follow-up question for you. In light of your explanation of the Greek behind "family" as being more along the lines of "paternity/fatherhood", which groups/classes of persons/beings would you consider that term being applicable to in the NT as it is used in Eph 3:15?
Thanks for your insights both of you, sorry I haven't gotten back to this thread for a while.
-Kyle
P.S. I have been following somewhat your responses in the "Are we immortal or not?" thread, but sometimes I get dizzy.