"Lordship Salvation"

[jriccitelli]

Correct!
Jesus and the Father are different - but equal members of God.
Throughout scripture God is explaining and revealing Himself to us in Anthropomorphic terms so that we can understand Him. God the Father (obviously) did not procreate with a Mrs.God and father Jesus (unless we are Mormon).

When Jesus refers to Himself as the 'Son' of man, Jesus is not talking about his parentage, for indeed Joseph was not his dad and Mary is a woman. Jesus is communicating that He is 'Human by nature' (as there were reasons to doubt he was human). And when Jesus called Himself the Son of God He is saying the same thing - that He is 'God by nature'.

Jesus makes Himself out to be equal with God Himself, over and over, which is blasphemy of the highest sort - unless of course - you are God.
Jesus does everything He can to make Himself out to be equal with God, He never denies it. Note that when John the Baptist was asked who 'he' (John) was, John said I am 'not' he.

'Do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'?' (John 10:36)
'If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father" (John 10:37-38)

If Jesus was not God He was guilty of blasphemy in the highest order.
But I agree with Martha; She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world."
And with Peter; Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
And with the centurion; "Truly this man was the Son of God!"
And with Thomas; Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed" (John 20:28)

[jriccitelli]

Isaiah 45;
3 "I will give you the treasures of darkness, And hidden wealth of secret places,
So that you may know that it is I,
The LORD, the God of Israel, who calls you by your name.
5 "I am the LORD, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
6 That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun
That there is no one besides Me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other,
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.

12 "It is I who made the earth, and created man upon it.
I stretched out the heavens with My hands And I ordained all their host.

14 'Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.'"
15 Truly, You are a God who hides Himself, O God of Israel, Savior!
16 They will be put to shame and even humiliated, all of them;
The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation.
17 Israel has been saved by the LORD With an everlasting salvation;
You will not be put to shame or humiliated to all eternity.
18 For thus says the LORD, who created the heavens (He is the God who formed the earth and
made it, He established it and did not create it a waste place, but formed it to be inhabited),
"I am the LORD, and there is none else. 19 "I have not spoken in secret...
20 "Gather yourselves and come; Draw near together, you fugitives of the nations; They have no knowledge,
Who carry about their wooden idol and pray to a god who cannot save.
21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 "They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory." (Isaiah 45)

How many times must God say it, yet wait;

'But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. (Luke 2:10-11)

(I think that is pretty clear)

'Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, magi from the east arrived in Jerusalem, saying,2 "Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him."3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled...' (Matt 2:1-3)

"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely with a mighty hand and with an outstretched arm and with wrath poured out, I shall be king over you' (Ezek 20:33) etc. etc...

Who is our King? Who is our Rock? Who is our Judge? Who is our Shepherd? Who is The Lord?

[Paidion]

Jesus does everything He can to make Himself out to be equal with God, He never denies it.

He DOES deny it.

... the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Paul also showed that Jesus did not seek equality with God but instead emptied Himself of all His divine attributes and became totally human while He was on earth. The only thing He retained of His Deity was His identity as the Son of God.

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 RSV)

[Homer]

Paidion,

Still hoping to hear your response to my post on 11/20. Perhaps you missed it.

[jriccitelli]

'If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."8 Philip said to Him, "Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us."9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me?' (John 14:7-10)

Jesus has been pushing the point of His Deity since chapter 9, and continues to do so in 14, and so 14:28 certainly is not contradicting the previous 5 chapters of dialog.
So we can safely concur that Jesus is speaking of the 'present' position He is in, with relation to the Father. Certainly a denial of Modalism, but Jesus is not denying His nature. Only the Son shares the same Nature as the Father, but positionaly the Father is greater, I wrote earlier;

So anything within His walk on earth is not to be confused with His eternal Being.

We do not know if this position of 'Greaterness' is intended to be something that extends forever, applies to (or alongside) the incarnation only, or what, because of the many verses also where the Father will give all things to the Son, and the verses that relate to the idea that; 'in that day My Name will be One', etc..

So, Paidion, you agree then that; Jesus is The Lord - and that there is Only One Lord.
And therefore since God is The Lord - then Jesus is God. Right.

For who is God, but the LORD? And who is a rock, except our God, (Psalm 18:31)

[Paidion]

Paidion,Still hoping to hear your response to my post on 11/20. Perhaps you missed it.

No, I read it, but I thought you were just showing how you could interpret these scriptures from your point of view. However, I will now respond in part.

If the primary purpose of Jesus sacrificial death is directed toward us and not God, how do you understand the author of Hebrews? Jesus' own blood sacrifice, offered to God the Father, is contrasted with the type from the Old Covenant:
Hebrews 9:11-14, New King James Version (NKJ)11. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14. how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I realize that one who believes in penal substitution would be able to see Christ "offering Himself to God" could have no other meaning. If one is brought up to believe in penal substitution and is accustomed to interptreting the magnificent sacrifice in this way, I can see how this would seem to be an argument against any other point of view. It's exactly how I thought until my mid twenties. But why would Christ "offering Himself to God" indicate that the primary purpose of His sacrificial death be directed toward God? I have frequently offered the following 5 verses which show that His death is directed toward man.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.
Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Can you quote even ONE verse which states that the purpose of His death was to appease God, or to satisfy God's wrath against sin? If not, then in what sense to YOU think He offered Himself to God?

With regard to the book of Hebrews, I think the primary error that is made by believers in penal substitution, is the idea that the writer is comparing the sacrifices of the Hebrews to the sacrifice of Christ in the sense of pointing out the similarities. Actually he was contrasting the two, pointing out their DIFFERENCES.

Jesus “offered Himself to God” just as the Hebrews “offered their sacrifices to God”, but in a much different way. Unlike the Hebrews, He was not trying to “appease God” or offer Himself as “a substitute” so that God wouldn't punish people for their sins, but even though He FELT as if He would rather avoid “the cup of suffering”, He yielded to the Father's wishes (“Not my will but yours be done”). This is the way in which He offered Himself to God.

You seem to believe that the "teaching" (training by chastising?) in Titus 2:12, by God's grace, was provided or enabled in some inexplicable way by Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

I think the primary meaning of “παιδευω” (paideuō), derived from “παιδιον” (paidion) is “to train”. The original meaning of “paidion” seems to have been “trained little child”, although the word was later applied to any child. Here are some verses in which “παιδευω” means “to train”, although it is translated as “to teach”, “to learn” and even as “to correct” in the NKJV quoted as follows:

Acts 22:3 "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught (paideuō) according to the strictness of our fathers’ law, and was zealous toward God as you all are today.
1 Timothy 1:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn (paideuō) not to blaspheme.
2 Timothy 2:25 in humility correcting (paideuō) those who are in opposition, if god perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.

In I Timothy 1:20, the word is in the passive voice, so that it might be translated “that they might be trained not to blaspheme”.

Training often requires some unpleasant experiences. Any child who is trained must undergo some experiences he doesn't want. But it would be a mistake to call these unpleasant experiences “punishment”. The word “punishment” implies the imposition of deserts rather than correction.

And if it is training by chastisement or punishment, God had no problem doing that before Christ came, as the author of Hebrews attests, quoting from Proverbs... If the cross of Christ was necessary for us to become "righteousified", as you put it, how do you explain the Old Testament saints who were commended for their righteousness and faith?[/quote
]
Why should that need any explanation? I have never implied that righteousness is not possible without appropriating the enabling grace of God made available through Christ.

Tell me how, from your viewpoint, Abraham could be “justified by faith” before Christ came? There must have been a way to be “justified by faith” before Christ came. Does that mean the “Old Testament saints” were “justified” retroactively?

Concerning the matter of ancient Hebrew righteousness, it seems that what God expected of them was much less than He expects now under the New Covenant. For example, God never said a word to the ancient Hebrews against their practice of having several (or even many) wives and concubines, or visiting prostitutes. He didn't say anything against them getting vengeance on their enemies, or hating them (“I hate them with a perfect hatred” — Psalm of David). All of this was changed with the coming of the Messiah! Also, in the past God overlooked sin done in ignorance, “but now commands everyone everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30).

Even today, many people who are not even Christians do deeds of righteousness. Some of them willingly help neighbours in need, and financially assist needy people throughout the world, etc. Some of them live moral lives. But through the enabling grace of God made available by the supreme sacrifice of Christ, one can much more consistently work righteousness and eschew evil.

[jriccitelli]

What on earth are you thinking? That 'men' are demanding justice for their own sins?
If Jesus' death was 'man-ward' (I guess that’s what you are saying) then in what sense does Jesus death benefit humans, at all then? (I don’t get it).
It seems to me Jesus' crucifixion pretty much 'condemned' all mankind in one glaring and horrific act. It certainly did not help mankind's predicament at all if God does not count His death as anything but the payment for sin.
We are all rather guilty as humans for crucifying our Creator - Jesus.
How is God then appeased? God is then still angry with man, Gods wrath has not been redirected, no penalty or payment for mans sins has been made and then what stands in the way of God fulfilling what He promised to do - that is, punish sin?

(All the verses you quote can apply to Jesus standing in our place of punishment)
Just because gravy is good on potatoes does not mean it cannot be used on the stuffing also.

[jriccitelli]

It would seem that a discussion of Jesus' Deity is straying off topic, but I feel the fundamental knowledge of 'who' the Lord is - has alot to do with 'salvation'.
So just the same, a fundamental knowledge of 'who' Jesus is has a lot to do with salvation. And so; if The Lord He is God, and Jesus is the Lord, and Jesus is 'your' Lord then you have a good chance you have the right God, 'and' salvation, as 'Only God' can save.

This kind of Lordship should give you an 'assurance' of salvation.

Of course we can never 'really' know 'who' is saved, but there are clues, and things that are evident (the mental and physical assurance) of a saved persons salvation.
I think this is what some people are insistent upon regarding a person's faith - assurance - and those insistent upon 'Lordship Salvation' are wanting to impress upon others - a need to have Jesus as Lord - and actually living as you should if he is.

But that’s the problem, you can never 'really' know if another person is 'living' as they 'should', without becoming critical of everyone, like the Pharisees were.
I don’t think it is wrong to insist that people 'obey' the Lord - but the finger can point two directions, how are we to know our accuser is really obeying the lord?

The controversy over Lordship Salvation generally seems to be a question over whether or not a person has 'been' saved, and how they are saved. It can also be a debate over whether or not we can 'lose' our salvation.

My opinion is; I see our Salvation as secure (when we believe), but the test of each person's faith may vary from person to person. Each person's sincerity and trust may fall beyond the observer's knowledge. God deals with each person in their own way, yet Gods Truth and Justice does not vary.

Believers have been sealed with the Spirit as a pledge, and with a promise. Yet with freewill, I see that a person is still capable of either denying the Lord, or consciously deciding they do not want God as Lord anymore. Not simply because of their temptations and flesh but because of their own mind and heart.

I see that God does not 'force' anyone to obey, nor 'force' anyone to be 'saved', not even His own people (Although God is very persuasive). So I see that a person is saved until they do not want God as Lord any longer (I think this is very rare, but I think I and others have observed it). Then God 'may' remove His Spirit, and your name from the book, it is your choice.
God promises Life Eternal for those who want 'His Life', I just don’t see God forcing it.

I think a person grows in knowledge and understanding, so no person can boast in having given 100% of their will to God 100% of the time. So we will by Grace grow in our relationship with the Lord, it doesn't happen over night.
I will endorse Brian's concept of 'Lordship discipleship'. This is a good analogy of salvation and it is biblical, in fact I think this is what we read in Psalms. Most of scripture speaks in a rather nationalist, observer, narrative, reporter style but in the Psalms we get a feeling of what is actually going on in the heart of a believer, this is the part of salvation that we don’t generally see and the part that is hard to identify.

That is why I see the Psalms as best 'describing the changes and attitudes' that take place in a persons walk with God, a response of Gratitude, thanksgiving, worship, and proclamation.

Paidion would agree that these changes should take place in a believer, but I hold out that the motivation and inspiration for change is from a heart of gratitude and thanks to God for having forgiven the believer who believes the forgiveness came at a cost to Christ Jesus Himself - a cost of pain, humiliation and horrible torture - endured by Him just to prove He would do it just to show us our sin and our guilt at the same time simultaneously in our stead.
'If' the sacrificial Lamb of God analogy does not apply to the crucifixion then we have 'only' crucified our Creator, and it has no application to forgiveness biblically.

If Jesus' death did not fit into Gods plan as foreshadowed by the scriptures and promises then it would be only a horrific thing, but we are astonished that God knew this all along and we are overwhelmed and in wonder over His great sacrifice for us - something God did not 'have' to do, and it is horrible and unthinkable that a being so Great would allow such a thing to happen to Him. Thus we are in awe and amazement at what a love God must have for Creation to afford such a price be paid to renew a relationship with those who would 'acknowledge' His sacrifice and worth.

Our Salvation is amazing in many ways, and undeserved.
This is the motivation for change - our knowledge of the Cross - which tells of His great Sacrifice of Love. When we sin, the Cross reminds us of our forgiveness 'and' it reminds us of the great love of God.
So, a person who grows in knowledge of salvation grows in 'respect' for their salvation.
A person who grows in the knowledge of the price and purpose of their salvation, grows in appreciation and reverence for their salvation.
A person who grows in knowledge (discipleship) of their Savior, grows in love for their Savior, and thus 'obeys' from the heart, and not out of demand, or fear, but out of love and gratitude. The end being praise and worship.
You see David going through these emotions over and over in the Psalms; Need - crying out to God for rescue - Gods salvation - David's thankfulness - David's joy - David's change of heart - Praise -worship - and proclamation!

[jriccitelli]

When I say Lordship salvation is in the Psalms, I mean David goes through a process and a progression in his walk, after he has 'been' saved. David continues to be saved from things all the time, but David expresses 'confidence' that since God has saved Him already, God will continue to save him - from everything.
We might note that David certainly knew 'who' his Lord was, and 'who' to call upon to save Him.

The following Psalm (51) like a dozen others, seems to lay down the progressive experience of a believer.
Notice the progression that David lays out here, pretty much a chronological order of a believer's experience. Repentance - confession - Judgment - Truth - wisdom - Belief - New birth - Holy Spirit - sanctification - Assurance - then, teaching - discipleship - praise;

1 Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness;
According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions.
(Realize God is gracious and compassionate, because He is great)
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity
And cleanse me from my sin.
3 For I know my transgressions,
And my sin is ever before me.
(Confession, repentance)
4 Against You, You only, I have sinned
And done what is evil in Your sight,
So that You are justified when You speak
And blameless when You judge.
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
(Acknowledge we are sinners, we have sinned against God, and that he is right in Judging sin, and us)
6 Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being,
And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.
(Acknowledge God desires truth and wisdom)
7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean;
Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8 Make me to hear joy and gladness,
Let the bones which You have broken rejoice.
(Believe that God can heal, purify us, and sanctify us)
9 Hide Your face from my sins
And blot out all my iniquities.
(Believe that God can forgive all our sins)
10 Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
(Ask for a new heart, be born again)
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
(Assure us of your salvation)
12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
(Change my will)
13 Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.
(Lead others the same way, disciple others)
14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise
(Sing praises and worship)
(Psalm 51:1-15)

[jriccitelli]

Note to Paidion in Psalm 51, you must have been thinking of a verse like this when you said;

Paidion wrote; '…when they offered their sacrifices (which God didn't want or need, but accepted from them as a concession. The Hebrews wanted to sacrifice to their God as the nations around them sacrificed to their gods)

For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar (Psalm 51:16-19)

Just because someone is a hypocrite when they pray, or sing, or worship, or whatever, does 'not' mean God is not pleased with prayer and worship. Nor does this mean that God never wanted it, nor does it mean only ignorant Jews prayed and worshipped. It is the same thing with the religious rituals and sacrifices, God said he was pleased with sacrifices and He demanded the sacrifice, but God was not pleased with hypocritical ritual that did nothing to change the worshipper.
Note that David says God is 'not' pleased with sacrifices vs.16 (insincere, hypocritical sacrifices), but then David says God will be delighted in animal sacrifices vs.19. The difference is the sincerity and purpose in the worshipper.
Do you see what I mean Paidion?

God 'demanded' sacrifice and we are saved by faith in Gods promise; 'God said' the sacrifices would atone for their sins, if they believed (had faith) that It was accredited to them as forgiveness, and it was (Leviticus 1-5).