"Lordship Salvation"

[Paidion]

Is anyone here saying that Titus 2:11, or Titus 3:4-7, or any other passage, speaks of "grace" appearing to a new believer on the day of their conversion, when they "accept Jesus into their heart", or are "regenerated", or whatever terminology you care to use?

Yes, I am saying that with regard to the to passages to which you refer in Titus.

The second passage would read, according to my understanding of a frequent use of the word translated as "justify":

But when the kindness and benevolence of God our savior appeared, not out of works in righteousness which we have done, but in keeping with His mercy, He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he abundantly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be rendered righteous by his grace and become heirs in the fond expectation of lasting life. (Titus 3:4-7)

However, the word "χαρις" has other meanings as it is used in other contexts. It sometimes means "loving kindness". It sometimes means "charm" (Even today, we call a charming person "a gracious person"). And it sometimes means "thanks". Even today, the giving of thanks to God is expressed as "saying grace." I think the word in some of the "grace passages" which Homer quoted, may have a different connotation from that which Paul used in Titus.

[Tychicus]

Tychicus, You wrote:
Is anyone here saying that Titus 2:11, or Titus 3:4-7, or any other passage, speaks of "grace" appearing to a new believer on the day of their conversion, when they "accept Jesus into their heart", or are "regenerated", or whatever terminology you care to use?

Paidion: Yes, I am saying that with regard to the to passages to which you refer in Titus.

Earlier, a day or two ago, you said the "grace" in Titus 2:11 appeared at Jesus's death or resurrection (in the first century). And I think everyone else here is agreeing that Titus 2:11 refers to what happened at the time of Jesus.

Are you saying that Titus 2:11 also has a second meaning, that grace appeared in your heart ("you" meaning any believer) on the day of your conversion? Note that I am not disputing that you received grace (in your heart, or whatever) on that day, but am asking whether Paul is specifically referring to this event as a second meaning of that verse?

If you think the verse does have two meanings, do you take one of them as the primary meaning and the other as more of an "application" than a "meaning", or do you think a verse like this can have two equal "meanings"?

But when the kindness and benevolence of God our savior appeared, not out of works in righteousness which we have done, but in keeping with His mercy, He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he abundantly poured out on us through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that we might be rendered righteous by his grace and become heirs in the fond expectation of lasting life. (Titus 3:4-7)

I agree that "rendered righteous" is a good translation.

Note that the same word "appeared" (ἐπεφάνη) occurs in both 2:11 and 3:4, and there are other similarities in those two passages. Do you see both passages speaking of the same event, the same "appearing"?

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

Earlier in this discussion I asked:

Is the primary purpose [Christ's sacrifice] "Godward" or "manward"?

And you responded:

Manward. It doesn't do God any good. He doesn't have to be appeased as in all the heathen sacrifices where people tried to appease their gods in order not to be punished by them.

If the primary purpose of Jesus sacrificial death is directed toward us and not God, how do you understand the author of Hebrews? Jesus' own blood sacrifice, offered to God the Father, is contrasted with the type from the Old Covenant:

Hebrews 9:11-14, New King James Version (NKJ)

11. But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12. Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13. For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14. how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

You seem to believe that the "teaching" (training by chastising?) in Titus 2:12, by God's grace, was provided or enabled in some inexplicable way by Jesus' atoning sacrifice. But if it is teaching, isn't that the role of the Holy Spirit? And if it is training by chastisement or punishment, God had no problem doing that before Christ came, as the author of Hebrews attests, quoting from Proverbs:

Hebrews 12:4-10, New King James Version (NKJV)

4. You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5. And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:

“My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6. For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7. If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8. But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9. Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10. For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness.

If the cross of Christ was necessary for us to become "righteousified", as you put it, how do you explain the Old Testament saints who were commended for their righteousness and faith?

Luke 1:5-6, New King James Version (NKJV)

5. There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the division of Abijah. His wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. 6. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

And of the heroes of faith, listed in Hebrews 11 as examples for us - how are they to be seen as made perfect along with saints of the New Covenant? Do you believe Christ's atoning sacrifice worked retroactively for them, enabling them to do what they did?

Hebrews 11:39-40, New King James Version (NKJV)

39. And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40. God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, you have (again) stirred up a lot of questions and I appreciate everyone's diplomatic and Christian courtesy. I 'do' think I am reading your posts and responding - apologetically.

I still need to be blunt, so I will only ask you these three questions;
Is Jesus Lord, or is God Lord?
Is Jesus our Savior, or is God our Savior?
Who is your Lord?

These are pretty simple questions, they should only require a few words to answer, if you wish.
I am trying to boil this down to what is important, the best I can.

[Paidion]

I still need to be blunt, so I will only ask you these three questions;
Is Jesus Lord, or is God Lord?
Is Jesus our Savior, or is God our Savior?
Who is your Lord?

Okay JR, since my answers to these questions are so important to you, I will gladly do so.

1. Is Jesus Lord, or is God Lord?

Jesus is Lord.

For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6)


So Paul affirms that Jesus is the one Lord. Yet Jesus has a God! "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

... that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.(Romans 15:6)

So, if Jesus is Lord, then the One who is His God, is also Lord. Indeed, He is called "Lord God" frequently in the Old Testament (though the word LORD, all capitals, is actually "YHWH ").

2. Is Jesus our Savior, or is God our Savior?

Jesus is our Savior and God is our Savior. In the New Testament, both are affirmed to be our Savior.

The expression "God our Savior" occurs in I Timothy 1:1, 2:3; Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4; Jude 1:25

Jesus is referred to as our Savior in Acts 13:23; Philippians 3:30; Titus 1:4, 2:3, 3:6; 2 Peter 1:1,1:11, 2:30, 3:18; Jude 1:25

Since Jesus is the exact imprint of the Father's essence (Hebrews 1:3), and since He and the Father are one in thought, purpose, will, and in every other way except identity, there is no difference in saying that I am subject to Jesus and that I am subject to the Father. It would be impossible to be subject to Jesus and NOT to be subject to the Father.

3.Who is your Lord?

Jesus is my Lord.

If I took out from my pocket a photo of myself taken with an old-fashioned camera, and then I took out from a different pocket a print made from the same negative, I could hold them up and say, "Here are two pictures of me." You might respond, "But that is the same picture!" Then I might say, "No, look! I have a picture in my right hand and another in my left. That's two pictures." What I have just said is literally true. Yet in another sense they are one picture since they are identical. I could have said to you, "Anyone who has seen one of these pictures has seen the other." That's the way it is with the Father and the Son. They are identical. That's why Jesus was able to say, "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father." So having said that Jesus is my Lord, it would not make sense to say that the Father is NOT my Lord.

Do the answers to these questions prove in your mind that the Father and the Son are the same divine Individual? To me, they don't so prove. At most, they prove that they are exactly the same, one in thought, purpose, will, etc.

Jesus prayed that his disciples would be one, as He and the Father are one. (John 17:21). It makes sense that the disciples of Jesus could some day have that same unity that Jesus and His Father has — alike in thought, purpose, will, etc.

I am not sure if you are a modalist (believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same divine Person, and therefore one God) or a Trinitarian (believe one compound God consisting of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit).

If you are a modalist, then will our becoming one as Jesus and His Father are one, mean losing our identity and being becoming a single individual? I certainly hope not!
If you are a Trinitarian, then will our becoming one as Jesus and His Father are one, mean becoming one compound human being consisting of millions of individuals? I don't think I would like that either.

[john6809]

Hi jriccitelli,
If for nobody's benefit but my own, would you be able to answer the same three questions you asked of Paidion? If you could do it in a similiar way as Paidion (just listing scripture addresses and a very brief explanation), that would be great. I like that I have to look up the scriptures myself to see what they say in context. Thanks for reading and God bless.
John

[jriccitelli]

Thanks for the question John, I think I will post the verses under a different thread though;
Is Jesus Lord, or is God Lord?
They are one Lord, because they are One God.

Is Jesus my Savior, or is God my Savior?
Jesus is YHWH, God is YHWH, and only YHWH can save us.

Who is my Lord?
I obey Jesus and the Father
Both are my Lord but both are of the One God, and the Lord our God is One.

Knowing the 'The Lord' is Salvation.
(Instead of the Lord's)
(Lordship Salvation or discipleship, cannot be so if you do not have the right Lord)

You are making a mistake with thinking that Jesus' was always (incarnate) a man (or reading the account of His earthly life without the context of His always being existent - God), you are aware He was made flesh for a limited space in time, and then returned to His former Glory (God can do these sort of things).

So anything within His walk on earth is not to be confused with His eternal Being.
'God' also confined and subjected 'Himself' to this incarnation, and lived and talked 'as a man' would to His God. God is the whole of the Godhead - and the persons who make up the Godhead are the parts - but the whole is the Lord God YHWH.

There is no reason why God cannot be two (or three) persons in One God.
If God says He is One - He should know!
We do not even know what we are, we can hardly imagine what spirit is made from or what form it has, what sense is it to say God cannot be two persons in One God?
After all - God is super fantastic - beyond all comprehension - Light Love Omnipotent etc. all in one - God made the universe so God may have a reach of 20 billion light years across and wide.
God holds Galaxies in His fingers (our galaxies is 100,000 light years across), and creates billion x billions of stars at ease and you are saying you don’t think God can be two persons?
Your God 'may' be too small.


Yet I am glad Jesus is your Lord. And I am glad you affirm Jesus is our Savior.
I just have a fear that you have a different Jesus.
And thus your Lordship is of a different lord.

Paidion wrote; 'At most, they prove that they are exactly the same, one in thought, purpose, will, etc."

Sure but two photos are still two photos'
If God says there is only one photo, and One Lord, then I will opt to go along with God.
If men write a million books are explaining how there are two Lords I am still going to go with Gods Book which clearly says there is One Lord.

'Two' things that are exactly the same are still two things.
'Two' things that are super similar in Purpose, in will, in everything are still 'two' things - unless they are One, so what is it One or two?

I posted a dozen scriptures where God tells us that He is One - there is no One else - There is no other Savior - No other Lord but One.
How can you deny these scriptures, you keep adding to their basic words.
God does not give any qualifiers - there is no one in purpose, or will, or whatever, there is only One.

"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me" (Isaiah 43:11)

"Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me" (Isaiah 45:21)

[jriccitelli]

One more note on Jesus saying My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Jesus is simply quoting Psalm 22, Jesus knew the context of the Psalm, David felt forsaken, but he knew he wasn't. For David wrote the Psalm knowing how it would end.
And so did Jesus.

[john6809]

Thanks for the post jriccatelli. I was having a little trouble following your train of thought but I think I get it now.
John

[Paidion]

God is the whole of the Godhead - and the persons who make up the Godhead are the parts - but the whole is the Lord God YHWH.

Let's see if I can make sense of this:

1. "God" = "The whole of the Godhead."

2. Jesus is one of the parts of God.

3. Jesus is the son of God.

4. Therefore Jesus is the son of the Godhead, of which He is part.