Hypostatic Union

[Paidion]

True, it occurs more frequently in regards to the Trinity and the Father...

I am hereby bold enough to affirm that the scriptures NEVER use the word "God" to refer to the Trinity. Indeed, they never refer to the Trinity in any sense, unless, of course, you regard I John 5:7 as scripture. If so, please note the following:

1. Out of the many hundreds of manuscripts which contain 1st John, there are only eight known Greek manuscripts which contain the passage.

2. Of the eight, four of them include it not as part of the text, but as a marginal note.

3. Seven of the eight date from the 15th to 18th centuries.

4. The other one is a variant reading of a 10th century manuscript.

5. During the Trinitarian controversies of the 4th and 5th centuries, no Greek father quoted the passage in support of Trinitarianism. Was that because it did not exist at that time?

If the passage were original, how can it be explained that it was absent from the many hundreds of early Greek manuscripts, and not present in even one of them?

So, I think the simple reason for that no scripture refers to the Trinity, is that there is no Trinity, and thus the writers never referred to one — for they held no such concept.

[psimmond]

Paidion wrote: I am hereby bold enough to affirm that the scriptures NEVER use the word "God" to refer to the Trinity. Indeed, they never refer to the Trinity in any sense, unless, of course, you regard I John 5:7 as scripture.

Since both Old and New Testaments make it crystal clear that there is only one God and he is often called God the Father, the next task is to see if either the Spirit or the Son is called God. If the Spirit is called God but not the Son, then binity would seem reasonable. Likewise if the Son is called God but not the Spirit, binity would seem reasonable. But if both Spirit and Son are called God, then trinity would seem reasonable.

When it comes to the Spirit, I think the passage in Acts 5 with Ananias and Sapphira is significant. Verse 3 says they lied to the Spirit and the next verse says they lied to God. Similarly, believers are called the temple of God, not the temple of God's Spirit although the Bible clearly says it is the Spirit who lives in believers. And in 2 Corinthians 3, Paul tells those he's addressing that they are epistles written "not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God." And in verses 17-18 of the same chapter we are told "the Lord is the Spirit."

With regard to the Son, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, we should consider Jesus' "I am" statements, especially this one: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." We should remember that the prophet Isaiah said the Messiah would be "God with us" and Matthew repeats this. And two apostles refer to Jesus as God--John and Thomas--as well as the writer of Hebrews. The Spirit is referred to both as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. And Jesus taught that you must worship God alone and yet allowed his followers to worship him.

I don't think the case I just made in the two small paragraphs above is necessarily that strong, but I think it's strong enough to counter Paidion's affirmation "that the scriptures NEVER use the word 'God' to refer to the Trinity" and that "they never refer to the Trinity in any sense, unless, of course, you regard I John 5:7 as scripture."

[steve7150]

With regard to the Son, as I said in an earlier post in this thread, we should consider Jesus' "I am" statements, especially this one: "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." We should remember that the prophet Isaiah said the Messiah would be "God with us" and Matthew repeats this. And two apostles refer to Jesus as God--John and Thomas--as well as the writer of Hebrews. The Spirit is referred to both as the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ. And Jesus taught that you must worship God alone and yet allowed his followers to worship him.







However all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Jesus by his Father. He asked his Father to give back to him the glory that he had before the world was made.

"And this is eternal life, that people can know you , the only true God , and that people can know Jesus Christ , the one you sent." John 17

Jesus said His Father is the only true God and Jesus identifies himself as the One sent by the One True God. Yes Jesus is deity and the Word of God but the description "the Word was God" can't mean God Almighty it has to mean "deity or divine" or there wouldn't be "One true God."

[Paidion]

Since both Old and New Testaments make it crystal clear that there is only one God and he is often called God the Father, the next task is to see if either the Spirit or the Son is called God. If the Spirit is called God but not the Son, then binity would seem reasonable. Likewise if the Son is called God but not the Spirit, binity would seem reasonable. But if both Spirit and Son are called God, then trinity would seem reasonable.

There is a great deal of difference between calling the Son "God" or the Spirit "God" and using the word "God" to refer to the Trinity.
You have not yet displayed a single instance from the Bible where the word "God" can be substituted by the words "The Trinity".

I have already indicated in what sense the Son may appropriately be called "God". It is also said, as you indicate, that "The Lord" (referring to Jesus) is said to be the Spirit.

As for the holy spirit, Jesus and His Father can extend their Personalities to any point in the universe, and especially into the hearts of the faithful. Those extended personalities comprise the holy spirit. That's what the holy spirit is. Of course Jesus is the spirit. So is the Father. Jesus and His Father share the same spirit. The spirit is personal. The spirit is the persons of the Father and the Son. So yes, Jesus is the spirit. The Father is the spirit. Likewise the holy spirit is the Father and the Son. And, yes, the spirit is not an impersonal force, but is personal, because the spirit is the very persons of the Father and the Son. But that does not imply that the spirit is a THIRD divine person. We read in the New Testament of the spirit of God (the Father), and we also read of the spirit of Jesus. But nowhere do we read of the spirit of The Spirit.

Trinitarians speak of "God the Father", "God the Son", and "God the Holy Spirit". The expression "God the Father" occurs 18 times in the New Testament. How many times does "God the Son" occur? Answer: zero. How many times does "God the Holy Spirit" occur? Answer: zero.

[psimmond]

Paidion wrote: There is a great deal of difference between calling the Son "God" or the Spirit "God" and using the word "God" to refer to the Trinity.
You have not yet displayed a single instance from the Bible where the word "God" can be substituted by the words "The Trinity".

I've never tried to display a single instance from the Bible where the word "God" can be substituted by the words "The Trinity," but I don't see why this would be difficult. (Gen 1:1 In the beginning, [the Trinity] created the heavens and the earth.) Whether or not the Bible ever calls the trinity "God" or call God "the Trinity" makes absolutely no difference to me. The same is true for whether or not you can find the wording "God the Son."

This is what matters to me:

The Bible says there is 1 God.
The Bible says the Father is God.
The Bible says the Son is God.
The Bible says the Spirit is God.

Do I understand exactly how this can be? Of course not! Quite honestly, I think God is chuckling because we look to him like 2-year-old children trying to discuss advanced trigonometry !

Here's something I like from C.S. Lewis on the trinity:

You know that in space you can move in three ways - to left or right, backwards or forwards, up or down. Every direction is either one of these three or a compromise between them. They are called the three Dimensions. Now notice :his. If you are using only one dimension, you could draw only a straight line. If you are using two; you could draw a figure: say, a square. And a square is made up of four straight lines. Now a step further. If you have three dimensions, you can then build what we call a solid body: say, a cube - a thing like a dice or a lump of sugar. And a cube is made up of six squares.

Do you see the point? A world of one dimension would be a straight line. In a two-dimensional world, you still get straight lines, but many lines make one figure. In a three-dimensional world, you still get figures but many figures make one solid body. In other words, as you advance to more real and more complicated levels, you do not leave behind you the things you found on the simpler levels: you still have them, but combined in new ways - in ways you could not imagine if you knew only the simpler levels.

Now the Christian account of God involves just the same principle. The human level is a simple and rather empty level. On the human level one person is one being, and any two persons are two separate beings - just as, in two dimensions (say on a flat sheet of paper) one square is one figure, and any two squares are two separate figures. On the Divine level you still find personalities; but up there you find them combined in new ways which we, who do not live on that level, cannot imagine. In God's dimension, so to speak, you find a being who is three Persons while remaining one Being, just as a cube is six squares while remaining one cube. Of course we cannot fully conceive a Being like that: just as, if we were so made that we perceived only two dimensions in space we could never properly imagine a cube. But we can get a sort of faint notion of it. And when we do, we are then, for the first time in our lives, getting some positive idea, however faint, of something super-personal - something more than a person. It is something we could never have guessed, and yet, once we have been told, one almost feels one ought to have been able to guess it because it fits in so well with all the things we know already.

[Paidion]

The Bible says there is 1 God.
The Bible says the Father is God.
The Bible says the Son is God.
The Bible says the Spirit is God.

Do I understand exactly how this can be? Of course not!

So you can't understand how all four statements can be true. That's the "mystery of the Trinity", eh?

Then let me set forth "the mystery of my big toe"

I can see with my big toe.
I can hear with my big toe.
I can neither hear nor see with my big toe.

All three sentences are true! So hard to understand!

Yet it is easy to understand when you know that in line one, I define "my big toe" as my eyes, in line two, I define "my big toe" as my ears, and in line three, I define "my big toe" as my elbow.

Now let's see how "the mystery of the Trinity" is not much of a mystery at all.

There is one God.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God

Trinitiarians use "God" in line one mean the Trinity, but in lines 2, 3, and 4, they use the word "God" to mean "the one "substance" or "essence."
Some of them might say that they mean "the essence" in line one also. But this won't work. An essence cannot be called "He". Mind you, a Trinity cannot be called "He" either, but needs to be called "They." However, Trinitarians call God "He". I think they are confused. I think when they refer to God as "He" they have the Father in mind.

From my point of view, I can affirm all four lines also.
In line one, I would think of "God" as the Father.
In the other lines, I would be using "God" as an order of being, analagous to "humanity".

There is one humanity.
I am human.
You are human.
Joe Bloe is human.
... and billions of others. Yet there is only one humanity.

I think this is a possible way to describe the Trinity, if that is your belief.

There is one divinity.
The Father is divine.
The Son is divine.
The Spirit is divine.
.... and there are no others. Yet there is only one divinity.

I don't know whether any Trinitarians would go with the above formulation or not, but at least it makes sense.

[psimmond]

Paidion wrote: Trinitiarians use "God" in line one mean the Trinity, but in lines 2, 3, and 4, they use the word "God" to mean "the one "substance" or "essence."
Some of them might say that they mean "the essence" in line one also. But this won't work. An essence cannot be called "He". Mind you, a Trinity cannot be called "He" either, but needs to be called "They." However, Trinitarians call God "He". I think they are confused. I think when they refer to God as "He" they have the Father in mind.

Paidion, your big toe is amazing!

You could be right, but what does this mean? Is an essence personal? I guess you're looking at a source or authority that I've never seen. I've been involved in numerous denominations that all hold to the doctrine of the Trinity and I've never heard any of them refer to God as an essence. God has essense, not God is essence.

[Paidion]

God has essense, not God is essence.

How then are you using the word "God". The "God" to which you refer (according to Trinitarians) is not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. What or whom is He? Is He a person? If so, He must be a 4th divine Person. Was He born on the earth as a man, as Trinitarians say? If so, then He must be the Son, after all! What a confusion!

[psimmond]

How then are you using the word "God". The "God" to which you refer (according to Trinitarians) is not the Father, nor the Son, nor the Holy Spirit. What or whom is He? Is He a person? If so, He must be a 4th divine Person. Was He born on the earth as a man, as Trinitarians say? If so, then He must be the Son, after all! What a confusion!

I believe (and as far as I know this is standard trinitarian doctrine) that God is not a person. The one true God is 3 persons of the same divine essence--the Father of Jesus, Jesus (the Word of God who took on flesh), and the Spirit of God. If this is confusing--and I think it is--consider the possibility that your 3 lb brain may not have the ability to comprehend this aspect of God.

Some will reject this because it's confusing.
Some will reject this because they don't see enough support for it in the Bible.
And some, like me, believe that it is portrayed in the Bible and accept it even though it is mysterious.

[Paidion]

I believe (and as far as I know this is standard trinitarian doctrine) that God is not a person. The one true God is 3 persons of the same divine essence--the Father of Jesus, Jesus (the Word of God who took on flesh), and the Spirit of God.

It gets worse! If the one true God is 3 persons, and God was born as a human being, then 3 persons were born as a human being. Thus Jesus was 3 persons. I wonder to whom he was talking when He was praying. He addressed Him as "Father". Was He talking to the part of Him that was the Father?

You say that the one true God is 3 persons. When Jesus was praying to the Father, He called the Father "The only true God."

Now this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Nowhere do we read that Jesus suggested that He Himself was the only true God or part of the only true God. Instead by adding "and Jesus Christ whom you have sent," He indicated that He was other than "the only true God."